OVER RESTORED

[W9JAB 156]

My first car was a 1931 Model A Ford, I brought it home in bushel baskets and dragged the chassis in with my buddies car. I was in the restore mode for many years. At the time those cars were not bringing in the big bucks, and I just wanted a kool car to drive around in. Over the years the prices of A's went up and as interest increased so did the level of restorations'.

That is reason I'm writing this, I believe that Wheel Horse owners today are ahead of the curve, Most of us just have a need for a tractor. And some see the old tractor as art form that should be preserved. Now as I was saying before I have seen cars go from "fix-em up" to restored to OVERRESTORED. Now I'm not saying that I have seen this at RED SQUARE but I feel a need to caution the readers of the dangers of over restoration.

The obvious, the value of an over restoration will not be easy to recoup the investment, purist will have to undo to get back to the original. Also you may lose out on potential buyers as over restoration falls into the "custom" class.

I see the junk the big box stores are passing off as tractors, stamped pans used as frames, little cast pot metal transmissions, small thin tires, and more O.E.M. parts to be discontinued, My ol' Horse looks better every day.

:scratchead:

[sawhorse 0]

Just to maintain wheel horses in their current condition is a worthy goal. We are

just about guaranteed to have access to quality parts for these tractors if we all

continue to use them. I think the majority of us would rather put our money into

parts for these wheel horses to do our jobs than put it into the purchase of a

new "tractor" from one of the big box stores.

My lack of interest in tractor restoration does not prevent me from being very

impressed with the restorations that I have seen on this site.

:scratchead:

[VinsRJ 723]

Its funny you brought this up, because I just the other day labled my RJ58 project as an over restored project. But then again I'm not building it for anyone else be me. :scratchead:

[rwilson 128]

I guess I'm kinda lost. What is "over restored"? I am restoring a 1960 suburban from the ground up. It will be a show quality tractor when i'm done. Is that what you call over restored?? :scratchead:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,162]

I can only guess at the meaning of the "over restored" terminology that "W9JAB" is using, but I see my interpretation of it in a lot of restorations too.....

An example would be an "alphabet" Farmall (A, B, C, H, M, etc.) that is smoothed of all the natural sheetmetal die wrinkles, waves, and spot welds with so many layers of sanded and buffed paint and clearcoat that the "grain" of the cast iron pieces is gone too.

As of yet, there is no governing authority on how and to what extent these tractors can be refurbished or "restored". I tend to give more credit to the backyard mechanic who does all of his own work vs. a guy with a fat wallet who can pay others to do the job(s), but that's just me. Whether an owner chooses to modify components for better or safer operation or to promote longevity is entirely up to him. As the owner of several "non-original" tractors and many more ugly "workers", I'd rather see these tractors saved and enjoyed by everyone rather than being picked apart by fellow owners.

There are more than enough MTD, JD, and CC tractors out there for us to bash - instead of picking on our brand.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@ VinsRJ: Do you have any pictures of your Clinton with the "Ferguson Morris" recoil?

Is that anything like a Fairbanks-Morse? :scratchead:

[kj4kicks 154]

So.... if a person uses primer under the paint, it's over-restored? :scratchead:

[linen beige 15]

So.... if a person uses primer under the paint, it's over-restored?

That depends. Are you talking $150 a gallon Dupont or $10 Valspar? :scratchead:

[MikesRJ 558]

I think "over restored" would be a tractor restoration done with allot of non-original configuration and parts. Being a "purist" personally, I think W9JAB's right to an extent. More of us restore for the pleasure of preserving history or the pleasure of owning a "custom" finished tractor. Not many, if any at all, are in it for the money. You'll never truly get back in cash what you paid in effort!

When I see a WH tractor, especially the pre-73 models, done in outlandish or non-original fashion it makes me cringe. My personal preference, and the pleasure I get from restorations, is seeing or owning a machine that looks pretty much like it did the day it was originally sold. Others have a different opinion. There are times and certain preservation "things" I will opt to do because it makes sense to me, but by and large original is almost always the right way to go.

I once bought a car who's PO went on and on about the "great restoration" he'd performed. The car wasn't in my shop an hour before we started tearing it down to fix all the non-original configuration mistakes. Simply because the previous owner didn't do his research, and in many cases allowed his personal preferences to dictate how the restoration was performed, it was a POS from a show standpoint. He actually got very mad at me because I overhauled it, this was some months later of course when he saw the car again at a local car show, and said we'd ruined all his work. Oh, by the way, it won first place for stock class in that same show and I wound up selling the car for twice what it cost me to restore. Did I make money on the sale, NO! Not when you factor in time.

By definition a restoration is anything returned to functional status or previous condition. Even changing a burned-out light bulb is a restoration of sorts, although I would call that a repair in my vernacular. You always have to have at least one more word (a descriptive adjective) in order to accurately define what TYPE of restoration you are performing. This is where most restorers make their first mistake. They don't clearly define, to themselves or others, what type of restoration they intend to do or don't stay with their stated type all the way through the process. Ask Vince (VinsRJ), he caught me veering off my originally stated type and brought me back to my original purpose. It's not hard to do, especially when you begin to get impatient, and you have to be diligent in your purpose or you'll wind up with a "custom".

I don't think anyone here would disagree with the following statement. "A 100% original restoration would require you to 1) Prepare all your piece-parts as WH did in the sub-assembly processes, 2) Assemble the machine in exactly the same order of progression WH did on the production floor, and 3) Use all the same methods they did at each step of each assembly process. You would have to go that far in your research to truly get a "100% Original Restoration".

Even my RJ isn't a perfect "100% original restoration" (note the descriptive adjectives), but it's a damn sight closer than most. I primed and painted parts separately that should have been painted as an assembly, there are some things not painted which should be, I added some washers here and there which are not original, and a few preservation "enhancements" which maintain and preserve the restoration over time. But, as I said before, they were all stated as part of "my restoration type" from the very start, and I have pretty much maintained that to this point.

I agree with TT as well, as I too give more credence to the backyard mechanic than Mr. Money Bags. Anyone can have others do their work and claim it to be their own, but to me there is no satisfaction in that. Each of us has our own skill levels, available resources, and personal preferences. Factors like these will always dictate how "well" a restoration is completed. The things I can do, I do. There are things I cannot do; either because of time, money, skill, or required equipment; so I send them out. If I could do them with the same level of expertise, I would. The guy who can do 99% of his own work deserves to be lauded. He's earned it.

My opinion is not necessarily yours, and neither of us has a right to suggest what is right or wrong for another persons machine. Unless, of course, they ask for our opinion. And if asked for an opinion, I will always start off by asking what "type" of restoration did you intend, and make sure they understand my preference and definition of an "original restoration". My judgment, preferences, and the "type" of restoration "I think" it should have been, aren't worth two cents. They are just that, my opinion. Does it make my opinion "right"? No!

If it makes the owner happy, and they are proud of their work, then it's the best thing since sliced bread in my eyes. Does that mean I think it's "right", absolutely not. Now if the guy stated "I did a 100% original restoration", then it's fair game to pick his machine apart (my RJ included, because I stated the intent publicly). But, you have to ask first what was the original intent for his restoration. You have to get the restoration adjective(s) before you voice your opinion. And at the end of the day, it's still just your opinion, and it still is not worth two cents to the other guy.

JMHO-YMMV

[MikesRJ 558]

@ VinsRJ: Do you have any pictures of your Clinton with the "Ferguson Morris" recoil?

Is that anything like a Fairbanks-Morse?

Vince knew what he was talking about! :hide:

[Don1977 605]

When you say you have a 100% restored Wheel Horse (just like it came from the factory) is impossible. I bought my C-120 new in 1977 and have maintained it over the years. The parts from Wheel Horse have also changed over the years. I have changed almost all the the parts that usually ware out. The factory made changes to the parts. they were small changes and still work on the older tractors. Unless you can find NOS parts from the year your tractor was made 100% restored original like it came from the factory is impossible.

[Rod(NASNUT) 1]

If it makes the owner happy, and they are proud of their work.

That is what I think If it makes the owner happy, and they are proud of their work that is what it is all about. I have only done 1 and that is my puller far from a 100% original restoration but I like it and am proud of it. That is what it is all about :scratchead:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,162]

Vince knew what he was talking about!

Just trying to lighten the mood a little - no offense meant, of course.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hobbies are supposed to be enjoyable, educational, and - most of all - FUN, correct?

If the day ever comes when the "correctness" of WH tractors (or any other brand, for that matter) is scrutinized at the level of certain automobiles, (Corvettes are a perfect example) then no one will see my tractors unless they come here to the shop or drive by while I'm using them. I got so tired of hearing others pick cars apart at shows - tired to the point of no longer taking my car and eventually selling it. I hear the exact same crap when I attend the local antique machinery show and witness people cutting down or criticizing farm equipment.

Each progressive time I have attended the WHCC show in Arendtsville I've noticed that it too was becoming more and more like the car shows. I understand that there's ultimately no real point in collecting and "restoring" these tractors unless you can share them with others and show them off, but no one can enjoy it if they're under a microscope. I also realize that some tractors are worth more and nicer than others but I don't need to be reminded of it on an annoyingly frequent basis.

The bottom line is that these are just TRACTORS - not Shelby Mustangs or Yenko Camaros. Unless a new WH was placed in a climate-controlled glass bubble, it is not going to be a perfect original. 99.9% of these tractors were purchased to be used - not sit around and look pretty.

No matter how perfect and original they are, the value can only be based on what someone would actually pay for it - and that has to be done by using the average - not by what you "have in it" or what one sold for on or at "_________". Don't think you're going to get $4000 for a "new in the crate" 208-3 either!

You can all thank eBay (or the internet in general) for causing the price of many things - including WH tractors and equipment - to slip outside the boundaries of reality. I could care less how nice the paint job is or how original the tractor might actually be...... I know what they're worth (to me) and that's all I would pay. If it doesn't suit, I walk away.

Maybe I just see things in a different perspective, but I've been around this stuff long enough to tell the difference between getting a good deal and being sodomized.

Remember to keep a level head and don't get caught up in the "thrill of the kill". There are still deals out there and patience will be your best friend.

to everyone who is in this to enjoy, use, and/or refurbish/restore our beloved brand of lawn & garden equipment.

[Raider12 13]

WOW! What a bee nest we have this morning!

I would have to agree with TT, thses machine are just tractors and were all built and purchased (at one time) to do a job not look pretty behind glass. But on the same note, I will not ever criticize someone for doing so. To each there own! I have never "over restored" a anything before in the past, but..... even if I had. It's mine! And if I were to chose to still use to mow grass.... it's still mine! And if I were to decide to sell it, it's still mine to do so.

Heck, now that Im writting this.... it might be best this entire thread be deleted.

I defintitly don't mean to offend anyone!

[MikesRJ 558]

When you say you have a 100% restored Wheel Horse (just like it came from the factory) is impossible. I bought my C-120 new in 1977 and have maintained it over the years. The parts from Wheel Horse have also changed over the years. I have changed almost all the the parts that usually ware out. The factory made changes to the parts. they were small changes and still work on the older tractors. Unless you can find NOS parts from the year your tractor was made 100% restored original like it came from the factory is impossible.

That's where you and I differ. Nothings impossible.

[Rollerman 290]

This is actually a pretty interesting thread & good to see the differant veiw points.

Personally I'm a rattle can hack & have not personally "restored" anything....in fact the word makes me cringe when people see one of my tractors I have worked on & tell me it's nicely restored.

I've pulled some tractors apart & refreshed them...but to call them restored.

I do own a few tractors that were (restored) by others....who's to say if there 100% authentic, but I like them.

I think we can all agree TT's pretty much hit the nail on the head.

If I were to see a tractor at a show no matter what color as TT described it kinda loses something about it's character.

Thats not to say I wouldn't apperciate the owners efforts.

We all personally have a differant level of skill we can put into the hobby too.

I can't even approach the level of work some of you have put into your machines.

I think it's awesome & want to see more of it.

Just as much as I like to see an old round hood someone has found in a barn cleaned up & left in original condition...."would that be under restored?"

[buckrancher 2,695]

TT you said it !!

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

My 854 is not a restoration project it's a rebuild project and I like lot's of

stainless If people call it a custom I don't care. I'am the one who has to

look at it everyday and I'am rebuilding it for me and not someone else.

I have no interest in value as I do not intend to sell her. Hats off to guy's

like Mike& Vin who try to do almost 100% restoration's .I would love to do one of my 701's like that someday

[whfan74 2,073]

Fantastic input by everyone involved. Debating is not only fun and informative but it is even better when they are thought about and articulated well.

The good thing about a debate here is that it is important to remember that we can agree to disagree. The common theme is everyone has their own preferences.

My personal opinion is that it is up to the individual doing the work. I am not one to criticize and point out what should have been done differently. I might not agree with all of the paint jobs, some of the homemade fabrications, or any other changes. The sole reason it was done was to accomodate the individual owner. Their time and effort should be considered.

This has become a very enjoyable hobby for me these past couple of years. I look forward to seeing the pictures which gives me ideas for my horses. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Personally I want my herd to look nice. I have come to the realization that nothing will ever be "perfect" We are all our own worst enemies when it comes to that. I am going to move forward with some clean up jobs so that I can use them, show them, and most of all have fun with them with my family.

[buckrancher 2,695]

That's where you and I differ. Nothings impossible.

Just not affordable :hide:

[MikesRJ 558]

Right you are Brian! :scratchead:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,162]

Someday I would honestly like to start with a complete operational tractor and tear it down for a just freshening up and new paint, but I seem to have more fun scavenging through my parts pile and piecing something together starting with a bare frame. Apparently that stems from my younger days of building countless plastic models kits?

At least I know I'll have the only one of it's kind.

[nylyon-(Admin) 8,123]

Well, you know that EVERY part on that tractor is Correct.

[oldandred 15]

well Im not adding a long post

I restore my tractors for ME and if some else doesnt like it well do your own.

short sweet and simple

just like my tractors

[HorseFixer 2,013]

If it makes the owner happy, and they are proud of their work, then it's the best thing since sliced bread in my eyes. Does that mean I think it's "right", absolutely not. Now if the guy stated "I did a 100% original restoration", then it's fair game to pick his machine apart (my RJ included, because I stated the intent publicly). But, you have to ask first what was the original intent for his restoration. You have to get the restoration adjective(s) before you voice your opinion. And at the end of the day, it's still just your opinion, and it still is not worth two cents to the other guy.

JMHO-YMMV

This is a really informative topic and can really get ya thinking. I have read many good points. I believe Mike said it best (its all about being happy), there are 1000 ways to do something and who is to say which one is right? Any type of restoration is preservation and is a better treatment than many of these tractors have seen. I would rather see a guy paint a tractor with latex housepaint than to let it rust away to nothing underneath some tree in his back yard! And then there is the Idiots on You Tube maliciously tearing them up as we have all seen! It really boils down to having fun with the hobby and enjoying yourself. I think the fact that everyone who is reading this that are members of this forum are testimony to the love of these tractors! I believe we are all stewards to the preservation, history and legacy of these tractors that has been passed down to us. We are all doing our part whether it be just talking about the history (telling the WH story) or doing a ground up restoration, anything we do to preserve the ideals of wheel horse is a plus! ++++ I commend all of you for your hard work! The fact that you are here reading this and part of this forum is testimony to your love for this hobby!

[rickv1957 75]

To each is his own deal :scratchead:

[wfopete 15]

For what it's worth, in the auto show world a 100 point restoration of a given vehicle often will play second or third fiddle to a well preserved, maintained yet driven unmolested original.

So fear not. If your Horsey's paint is a bit faded or chipped and the stitching has unraveled on your vinyl seat but the tractor is otherwise pretty much correct you still have a great example.

Another plus is you don