Leaderboard

BMSGaffer is correct! Using a timing light and the B-TDC ("A" mark) mark is the most accurate. But I have found that once I know the gap with a timing light, I use a sharpie and write it on the inside of the points cover. Then when I replace points I go to that gap and check with a light. Rarely wrong until the engine is rebuilt again. And if it is wrong, it's one 1 or two thousandths off.

Someone smarter than me may come in here and give some more insight, but here's my take: The combustion of the gas and air actually takes time from beginning to full expansion. You have to time the explosion to be used up to its fullest in one down stroke of the piston. To do this, the explosion is started just before TDC (keep in mind at 20° before TDC the piston is not really moving up much at all, its VERY close to full stroke). The inertia of the flywheel is enough to overcome the minimal pressure at this point and the combustion should be in full force by the time the piston starts heading back down. At 3600 RPM that piston is going through one combustion stroke in just 1/60th of a second. If you time it too early then you will 'ping' and the explosion will work too much against the inertia and you will loose some power, if its too late then you will be sending some of the still active explosion right out the exhaust stroke (open valve) and loose power that way.

Well boys & girls , I feel I should update you all on my current state . Last month , I was fired from my job of 13 years for a really dumb reason . Partially my fault but it was really a blessing in disguise . I was absolutely miserable there but made good dough & when this happened after the shock wore off ( about a day ) I realized there is waaay more to life than just money . Took a huge pay cut but with the house paid off ( just the month before ) & no car / pickup payments , this is do-able . I was working again 2 days later for a little outfit where you're actually treated like a human being rather than the contents of a bag on a Halloween porch prank . We do most of outr work for General-Mills hauling their finished product to various local customers . Today I was training on "bulk" flour where I load several trailers & the road guys haul them to where they need to be . Its been 13 years since my boss whacked me on the shoulder & said " nice work , man " .

Got some paint on the tractor lately, it is far from perfect but looks better. Also new rear tires. I think it will be my tractor for pulling the roller, trailer, old engines on carts, etc....

Thanks sparky...way to ruin a good thread. love you man...

Very educational for me too! Thanks

Thanks Brandon and Mike, for taking the time to explain the process and setting me straight. Obviously, this is my first attempt at a rebuild and I really appreciate the advice. Hopefully others on here will also benefit from this discussion.

Later Toro branded horses had model nos like that. 17-44HXL 17 meaning 17 HP (almost all Toro branded vertical Briggs) with a 44" deck. H = hydro. no idea what XL is for. Actually these weren't bad little tractors for the money. Couldn't do much more with them than mow & bag. Certainly not like most of the horses here, decks weren't meant to be taken off and other attachments put on pretty much just for mowing. They do cut a mean head of lawn tho. When I met my wife she had gotten a 16-38HXL in a divorce which I kinda scoffed at along side my REAL WH's at the time. Turns out it often is my go to machine for a quick cut, bagging clippings for the garden or pulling tubs around for chores, especially if one of the real horses is hobbled and awaiting parts. I have no idea if her's were sourced from mtd or not, think its about a 2002. Maybe some one painted it white to propose to his gal...ya know ride up on a white horse....

Second Question: It is a Toro Lawn Tractor produced from 1999-2004. It has a B&S vertical engine and a Hydro Gear transaxle. It is still better than the tractors from 1995-on that were sourced from MTD.

OK Dennis...I am by no means an expert on Wheel Horse tractors, but I feel your pain. If there is one thing that this site lacks, it is the ability to pull up good pictures of horses with an explanation of what is different between the years. Case in point...on the main page we have "Picture Gallery" and the sub-category, "Wheel Horse Picture Horse Gallery" For the most part you can go in there and identify a horse...the problem...I think through the up-grades and from the old "Forum-er Site" a ton of pictures have been lost. Another thing that never happened...the folks that posted these horses only posted maybe one shot (usually the left side) when it would be helpful to show at least 4 pictures showing all sides of the horse. This could be my next project...delete the worthless posts that have no pictures and set it up to have pictures, of every horse that is correct...and if it is not correct...why not. We could go to the members that did have posts in there and see if they want to offer up those pics again. What do ya think?? On a serious side...if you do this...a new member can go into this section...identify his horse and never post anything. In other words, if you have all the information available...you lose the back and forth that so many of us love here on Red Square...that includes the banter. Personally, I think it would do us all a favor to clean up the Wheel Horse Picture Gallery...I think that Brrly1 even started a thread concerning this. Understand that this could become a huge undertaking with a bunch of knowledgeable members weighing in on what is correct and not. If I had the admins blessing on this, I already have some ideas on how to go about this...you have brought up something that , I know, a few of us have been thinking about. I was looking for something to do.

Well, I had an unexpected day off... So I hitched up a trailer and went for a ride to see the 522xi. It's now the newest horse (literally and figuratively) in the stable. Not sure the exact number of hours because the meter stopped. But, I saw his property and know when it was purchased, and his estimate of 750-800 hours seems likely. Functionally, it's near perfect and has been very well maintained. There are two issues: the seat is shot, and the paint is pretty scratched/rubbed/worn. It is in great shape otherwise. The PO fashioned an awesome rear suitcase weight complete with a ball hitch, and it still maintains clearance to use the drawbar hitch beneath. The 2-stage 44-inch snowthrower looks brand new. That thing is three times the size of the single stage on my 520-H... It's a real monster. The PO is including a great offset pull-behind mower deck that he made from a 48" deck from a 520-H powered by a 16 HP Kohler. Nice. He had very good maintenance records which also support his claim for hours. It was always serviced at a reputable Wheel Horse dealer, and the service records are recorded (and signed/dated) by the dealer in his manual. And I thought I was anal about certain things. I am extremely impressed with the 522xi. It is what Wheel Horse should have offered 10-20 years earlier. Some of the systems are more complicated, but still seem to be well engineered. Most areas are easier to access than the 520-H and the engineers actually thought and planned for how to service the machine. The service manual is very good and seems to cover most anything that I could encounter. As long as there are parts available when the time comes, this beast should last another decade or two. The 20 HP Onan in the 520-H seems a bit "torquier" to me, but the 22 HP Kohler V-Twin in the 522xi is WAY smoother running, quieter, and more fuel efficient (not hard to do compared the the Onan). I really like the horizontal positioning of the Kohler and love the driveshaft/front PTO configuration. The intake is a vastly superior design as well. For those of you not familiar, it is completely shrouded with screens on 3 sides--making it virtually impossible for any debris to make it to the flywheel screen (cue the angelic chorus). That's the one thing I really don't like about the super-sucking Onan on the 520-H... constantly clearing debris off the intake. The 2-speed Eaton 11 in the 522xi is also awesome with the HI and LO range, and seems smoother and more refined than the Eaton 11 found in the 520-H. I'm not sure if the driveshaft vs. belt drive has something to do with this. I wont really know which horse is truly stronger until I get some time behind the wheel of the 522xi. My instinct is that the 522xi will prove itself to be the stronger of the two, but it is also almost twice the weight and the operator is more disconnected from the equipment with power steering and shaft drive, smart turn, etc. This may be the reason that I don't initially FEEL the power like on the 520-H, even though there is a lot of it. But there is no question that the 522xi is HEAVY DUTY and refined, with all the modern features and comforts. It's the first WH I have driven that makes the 520-H appear to be fragile. I am really looking forward to owning this thing. To me, this model seems like the pinnacle of Wheel Horse. I think it's that good. I always felt the 520-H was great and powerful. This 522xi is just magical. It's like Wheel Horse finally figured it all out... and nailed it. (I don't wish to offend with this statement... everything WH did is great, that's why I have several... and I understand that some of you may have the opinion that a shaft drive WH is not a true WH) Thanks for letting me share the adventure. I will add some pics when I get a chance.

Glenn .. I would LOVE to find an old school pin striper around here ... all my little blotches are vinyl .. sucks I know, but til I find a real live arteeest ... thats all I got!! LOL Nah once I get the bunper done ... with any luck next week, I will take some full pics toi share. I'm an ass, but not THAT much of an ass!! LOL

I can't comment on Molex since I haven't used them for years. The AMP (now Tyco) connector shells do have numbers, but very small. AMP is what was put on by Wheel Horse at the factory. The pins are identified in below photos. Consider using gold pins in positions 7 and 9, regulator and battery respectively. Crimped connections need to be tight and only on clean bright wire. If you can pull them apart they were not crimped tight enough. If conductors are not bright copper colored clean them up until they are, especially on pins 7 and 9. . If there is any doubt consider soldering in addition to crimping.

I've bought "Straight From the Horse's Mouth, The Wheel-Horse Story", read a ton of online info, joined the yahoo groups, downloaded IPLs, manuals, brochures, read most of the forum chats, viewed and collected, sorted hundreds of pictures and tried to build a database of info about WH garden tractors. Overall I think I've collected a lot but I fear only scratched the surface and am no where near ready to write the "Wheel Horse Encyclopedia", nor do I even think I ever will be, but, I do want to know more. Assuming that I haven't just overlooked the "Encyclopedia of ALL that is Wheel Horse" and that I'm not the only one interested in how to tell just by looking what model and year all these wonderful machines are where do I go next? I have: AA Wheel Horse ID list 1955-84 WheelHorseAllYear All the WH brochures I can find... WH Attachment Interchange 1955-2000 I know there are folks that know far more about WHs than I ever will but I see only little tidbits for how to identify certain Wheel Horses here and there. In depth, accurate, definitive, detailed info but only about specific models and years. Nothing really covering all WHs. I know it would be a huge undertaking to pool all that is known about WHs but it seems like there either must be something more out there that I've missed or we should try to pool what we can! And I'm not really talking about ALL that is known, just ALL that is necessary to ID them! Not fix, or what parts will interchange, just tell what they are. Many are missing tags, lots covered in rust, partially hidden in the weeds, some in pieces and several built from pieces. It would be so nice to drive past an old timer, turn back around and positively ID it without having to climb a fence and search for a tag, chase down the owner or post it online and hope someone how knows will see it and help. Perhaps I've just overlooked something? I hope so! If not, perhaps we could take just a bite at a time approach. Perhaps cover just the 1950s and save it in a file for all to review, correct, update and finally use. Then maybe tackle the 1960s... What years/models: had the gas fill hole offset from center? used an aluminum tank mounted above the dash had a straight bar axle? Upward swept axles? High clearance, inverted "V" axle? cast iron grilles round hoods 3 point hitches electric powered Clinton engines? Kawasaki engines? Renault engines? Short frames, mid frames, long frames? A lot of this could simply be added to the existing spreadsheet, in fact I've started already and added some info, but I'm missing most of the knowledge! I know there's folks that can ID most but how can we share that knowledge better? Thoughts? Ideas? Thanks! Dennis Thornton

I simply couldn't pass up the opportunity to own one. The snowblower alone is probably worth $1000+, so $2500 for both a moderately used 522xi in perfect working order and the blower plus the blade seemed like a deal not to miss. From checking various parts suppliers, the prices seem about the same as 520-H parts I have purchased recently. The used market is slim pickins, but as robust as the 5xi series is, I am not surprised. There aren't many of them that are only good for parts yet as they are still running strong. Brand new Kohler Command Pro CH22 engines are still available as well (really expensive, but available), and it seems like a much easier design to repower with a wider variety of engines if need be. There also seems to be more new parts still available then the 520-H has available. I understand the concern with XI exclusive components, but I have a feeling that more used XI stuff will start showing up during the next few years. It seems like I can keep the 522xi going at least that long without major problems. Someone suggested that the Kohler Command Pro engines are good for 2000+ hours when properly maintained. Mine is at about 800. I will post some pics this weekend and share some final thoughts after I get a couple of good work days out of the (new) 522xi.

Here's the two manuals I have always gone by when rebuilding. Always have over-torqued 20% and re-torqued to spec., as suggested in the newer manual (2nd one). Never did notice any burrs so never did any of that. http://www.mywheelhorse.com/graphics/file/Engines/Kohler_K91-141-161-181-241-301-321_1972-SM-2.pdf http://www.mywheelhorse.com/graphics/file/Engines/Kohler_K91-141-161-181-241-301-321-341_tp_2379_SM.pdf This time of year just make sure to fill the engine with straight 30w oil, run for 5 hours with the deck engaged, and then do an oil change.

It's new to me. A Johnson "Work Horse" Midget Model 10. Only 30" wide. Has manual trip bucket. Made a even swap for it.

Good for you. It probably was a blessing in disguise! Nothing worse then doing a job or working at a place you can't stand. I worked for a x-Ray company for 9 years. I loved what I did there. Once we were bought out by a large "think tank" everyone became just a name and number. I took a huge leap of faith and quit for a job at a private school running their laptop program. Not exactly what I wanted to do but needed the change. 3 months after I started the new job, I got the job offer for my dream job as a fire fighter and have never looked back!

Congrats on the new career! I love your positive outlook! Mike......

Looks like you've put a lot of time into it already so I'm guessing you want to do the best, longest lasting repair that you can. Take a torch to it, playing the flame over the bare area gently at first and heat while checking for changes in color to small spots. The good thick area will hold it's color while the thin ready to rust through needing to be patched areas will turn straw and then blue. You'll have a better idea of how big to make your patch while limiting your work by using the smallest patch possible. Then make your patch. Don't cut until you have your patch ready! Use some heavy paper to make a pattern thinking about how you will make your bends in the sheet. No point in making a big one piece complicated pattern if you can't bend and make it in sheetmetal. You might consider doing some of the bending before you cut your patch since you might have more to grip and better leverage. A vise, pliers, hammer and an anvil, big chunk of steel or pipe will be very handy, but you can use the edge of a workbench or edge of your deck or steps and a length of 2x4 and clamps. Whatever it takes with whatever you got! Bend, heat and bend, pound with a backup, block of wood or even sand or dirt. Then test fit your patch to the still uncut deck. You can even do a bit of finish shaping using the deck as the backup. Clamp it in place, hammer, heat the resisting spots and hammer some more. When you are happy with the patch mark around the edges and cut out the bad area. Tack weld corners and edges first until it is locked in place hammering out any distortions as you go. Use a metal dolly or another hammer to support your work from behind. Then fill in your welds and grind. If you shaped and hammered well you'll have less work now. If you didn't then hammer, heat and hammer some more. Any bad spots are still fixable. Good luck with it! Dennis Thornton

At least we are almost the same age (65)...I threw his up in the shout box and I will talk to Karl about this...let's see what kind of reaction we get for a few days. If there is some interest in this, i do not see why we can not do this...the expertise is certainly here...I say let's try to do this...it will certainly up me average on guessing "what horse do I have"... Dennis, let's give this a few days and see what we get for responses.

Oh man! So much for finding the uber rare albino special order Wheel Horse.

I hear ya! I have NO business adding another task but I'm quite interested in this. I'm 63 and I recently walked with a 70 year old gent through his woods with his trees growing up through tractors! I hope he lives to be over a 100 but he will still die with tractors in the woods and take a lot of knowledge with him when he goes. Each year the local Antique Tractor shows have less attendance. Fewer members! Certainly this project will take time but we have some. Some! Some members will know most everything about something. That's all we need! Just get some exposure to those folks willing to share a bit, and I bet that's most, and we'll have INFO! Then we need a place to put it. For a start I'll offer to add what I can to my spreadsheet and be happy to share it but eventually we would need a master/official spreadsheet or similar. I can do the same with photos! (Trust me, any well documented quality photos that hit this site are going into my collection anyway! <grin>) but at least that way if this site is not ready just yet we can begin to collect and sort. But perhaps what we need is easily and quickly done here? I hope so! And, yes! You and I are not alone! If we are I'm really counting on you! I think starting with the RJs is fine! Anywhere really. But if we start at the beginning there's fewer models per year and should be easier. Plus, doesn't everybody love the little ones! Dennis

Here's the pics. I have an original air filter coming soon.

I was kidding when I said I was looking for something to do. I also realize, and I do not think we are alone here, this needs to happen. I would start with RJ's and work up through the horses. Once we get going, information could be instilled in threads and then moved into the final analysis. We happen to have a bunch of members that are extremely knowledgeable with certain eras of the horses. If we could get their expertise and pictures, we could actually make this Wheel Horse Encyclopedia and incorporate it into the Wheel Horse Pictures Gallery on the main page...with pictures from all angles with explanations of what is right and what sometimes happens when they wanted to use up parts...like the Clinton engine in the 400 Suburban. What does everyone think here. I would like to see some ideas from the members and I can talk to Karl to see if he wants to help set this up. This is going to take some time.

Could it have been one of these? This is my GT1600 (modified). Mike........... Yep, looked just like that. I thought I saw a picture of a white one here before

I love forum interaction! In fact, I've been doing it before the Internet. I'm guessing creating the WH Encyclopedia would generate a TON more forum activity than right now and even after/if the WH Encyclopedia were published I think forum activity would go on fine, just perhaps less about "What is it?". Or at least it wouldn't be about a common WH. Of course after the "Tractors" are done we'd need to do the "Attachments"! <grin> Lot's of forum banter I think! Absolutely correct! Pictures with accurate Year/model names for each WH made should be doable an a GREAT asset to IDing! Surely most are owned by the members or their friends. If the admins can create the basic guidelines and webpage arrangement of photo slots then members could upload and the rest of the members comment, confirm or correct. I'd love to see some way of approving them, maybe similar to "Like"ing but rather "Agreed!" or "Correct!" vs "Incorrect!). Something like that anyways. I'm filing my downloaded collection of photos, brochures, IPL and manuals chronologically by decades and then by year with each model having it's folder. I think that's handier for ID purposes than having all manuals in a folder elsewhere, which could still be done with links or actual copies elsewhere grouped anyway anyone wants. But for me, everything goes in by year. If it pertains to several years then by decade, if several decades then it just goes into /Wheel Horse. My text database is different with Wheel Horses by Model, A, Bs, etc, then 200s, 300s, etc, Round Hoods, GTs and so on. Really anyway anyone would want if the data is in a spreadsheet. In just a few minutes I used the existing spreadsheet to sort on engines. Briggs for example: B&S 1955-56 1971-72 1974 1976-84 Now that's assuming that the info in the sheet is correct, that I sorted and counted correctly (I think I did!). Most anything we would want to track could be added to the spreadsheet. Just need the info and folks to confirm it. Oh: Kohler 1955-2004 So YES! Please? You said you were looking or something to do! Thanks! Dennis Thornton 1964 654 1972 Raider 8 1977 C-160 1978 C-81 1981 C-85 1984 GT-1100 1987 310-8 1993 416H 1998 520lxi 1990 Husqvarna GT160 1978 Sear Suburban GT/16 1995 Simplicity Broadmoor 16 Twin Not all are complete and working... Yet!

Bob: You mean your 'brother-in-law' is just like you ? Wished you lived closer, 'cause you are very welcome to borrow anything I have (even money, but not my wife). Glen

That WH #1232 (new TORO #100863) crosses to SKF 9815. This seal is made to go inside the axle housing on the very early RJ's...the bronze axle bearing is actually recessed 1/8" in the housing to accommodate this seal. I believe what happened...as the bronze bearing wore that seal would start leaking. The fix was Wheel Horse went to the WH#1257 (new TORO#83-2840) . This is the cap seal that is only available from TORO for about $18 apiece, and mounts on the outside of the axle housing. Hope that clarifies the situation. Trust me, I have seen some of these early RJ #5003 transmissions.

Everybody's brother is different....I would loan a tractor to my brother (or father) without a second thought, but I know they wouldn't abuse it. How about loaning him a machine and then "donating" a Saturday to get the motor swap done in the New Holland. You'll get your Wheel Horse back much quicker that way and get some quality time with your brother and father. Mike.............

Some of the push reel mowers do an excellent job! My Horses stay in "my" old barn. I love my Horses and they know I feed 'em non-ethanol fuel.

The horses w/ batteries came out for some green grass today. The poor guys w/o batteries are stuck in the barn.

Howdy. New guy here. Signed up a while back. Finally took some time to poke around here today. Just did my first post today after discovering and ordering Straight From The Horse's Mouth book. Looking forward to reading it. I was born in 1963. My dad started buying WH tractors about 1960. He sold new Chevys and Buicks. He and the local WH dealer traded business. So he had a new tractor every couple of years and the dealer had a new Chevy every few years. So I've grown up around them and have a fondness for them to this day. I got my first one, a .68 Commando when I was 24-25. Soon after I bought a '77 B80 in 1994 and still use it to mow and push snow. I've recently purchased a '77 B100 project to get the mower deck as mine is rusting out. It needs some putting back together as the engine was overhauled several years ago and the owner passed away before getting it running. I've just ordered some missing parts to get it running. May need some help and advice before too long. Thanks, Todd

Time indeed! I wouldn't want anyone other than other collectors/enthusiasts to know how much time I've put into this already! Only they would understand! However, I don't believe that each of us has to go through the same learning curve if we all share. I've learned a lot compared to just a year or so ago, but I'm a complete newbie compared to others here! What I would hope to add is some spark for others to share their vast knowledge and get it put somewhere it will last forever and to share with all. It would be a chance for you to help justify all the time you spent and help keep me and so many others from spending SO much time! I know that it would be a huge project to get it ALL, but we don't have to do it all at once. Just one bite at a time. Dennis Thornton

I HAVE FUEL INJECTION IN MY 1054 W/H. I PUT A DIESEL IN IT. RUSS

The bottom line is it takes time. When I first got into collecting I emersed myself in it. Researching everything I could find. Downloading every picture I could find. Downloading every document about them. It actually consumed me. Going to show after show and speaking to whoever I could. There are a bunch of guys on here that really know a lot of the history and really intricate quirky back story on Wheel Horse Tractors. Seek the out and pick their brains!

The easiest way to ID any Wheel Horse tractor..... Just post a thread here on RedSquare about the tractor with a pic or two and... Woolaa --- You will get all the information you need. Doesn't get any easier than that! RJs and Suburbans has already been done, I'll find the list and things to look for about them and post it here when I do.

Schhhhhhhhh....weet! Whats it's serial #?

That is a pretty slick kit and it would be fun but I'm seeing the cost too. Also, that particular kit is only for up to about 18 cu in. It's even more $$ for a larger motor.

Seriously... On some types of tires 3-5 psi can make a BIG difference, but you wont notice it from looking at them. Happens to me on my walk behind all the time where one tire has a slow leak then after i get done cutting the grass I am at all the grass ridges.

A thin cutoff wheel on a grinder is definitely the best way to go, easier to use and better control imo. as far as bending steel your best bet is to use 16 gauge because its still thick enough to be tough and hold up on the deck but also thin enough that it can be bent by hand or with various hand tools without using heat. I have done many deck repairs now and that's always what ive used. The latest repair I did was actually for a coworker but its by far the best one ive ever done. Heres a link to the thread I made maybe it can help you out somehow. http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/55878-deck-shell-repair/ Good luck Paul

They are 5/16"-24. I wasn't sure so I just now verified it.

If I loan something to my brother, it usually stays there until I call and ask to get it back. However, if I loan something to my brother-in-law, he returns it as soon as he is done, cleaner, and in better condition than when it left. Never have been asked to lend a GT.

When you mount it to your fender pan make sure you use large washers like fender washer or something similar underneath to spread out the stress caused on the Pan. With all the vibration and wind blowing against the cab it puts more stress on the pan then one would think.

All that I have seen were 5/16ths" 24.

I shut mine off every time on both I use as it seems to stop the intermittent needle stick situation (which may clear now that have started using ethanol free). I still smell gas when get the hood open but see no dripping when sits awhile before use. Both tanks have the "baffle" piece in lid. Till I run it down I'll still turn the valve off and run a bit before shut down to relax needle on seat.

When my brother asks to borrow something he really means donate. Sometimes I do sometimes I don't.

Rule #4... FORGET THE SOCKS!!!

OK, I made the decision to cut the plow frame and make this plow usable on short and long frame tractors with the either the newer narrow axle bracket that fits inside the frame or the older wide axle bracket that fits outside the frame rails. First I cut off the frame rails 1/4" behind the forward holes. This makes it usable on a short frame tractor with either axle bracket. Now I needed to make a plate to bolt the frame extensions back on for use on the long frame tractors. I plug welded a piece of channel inside the rail extension and bolted this channel to the frame rail. I purposely did not make this longer and heavier as the two pieces of the rail fit together with no clearance and are in compression when plowing. The one 1/2" bolt just keeps the extension in position. I also cut the extension pieces off 1/4 " behind the hole to get the clearance required for the wider outside bracket. The plow is now usable on my short frame 875 and Commando 8 with the older wide axle bracket and on the long frame 314H with the newer narrow axle bracket. Here are just the extension pieces on the 314.....hmm, that looks like the start of a rear hitch also. Gotta keep the eyes open for an old plow frame.

Any possibility you can give us a video of this working and turning at various speeds and topography.... Thanks much