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krb

Magnum 310-8 charging issue

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OK, I'll check that and see, maybe borrow my dad or brothers to compare readings. Have to work tomorrow so may have time Sunday.

 Thanks 

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Not gotten another meter to compare yet but AC voltage at anode end is 0.109-0.120 on the 2V scale, doesn't register on the 200V scale. I checked it against 120V house current and the meter appears accurate.

 

So I guess we have the problem isolated to the stator or recitifier huh?

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Posted (edited)

Well, the rectifier is ok. You have less than .2 volts AC between the Anode of the diode and ground with engine running. Its looking like a stator problem to me.

 

Now,  I will pose this question to the experts on this particular engine. Can one simply upgrade to the 15 A stator? My opinion here is the original stator is open ?high resistance probably or simply open and needs to be replaced. Makes no sense to me to simply replace the original stator with another of the same type. Will the 15A stator fit? I assume it will.  I also assume the matching regulator CAN be fitted.

Edited by 6bg6ga

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In the mean time wonder if a diode could be added to the stator wire feeding the light switch and use that wire to charge the battery?

 

Garry

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There is no rectifier in this system.  Test # 2 should have showed 28 volts you got .2.  Since the diode is apparently OK New stator time.  I have the 3 amp system in my 310-8 works just fine.  If you want to upgrade you would have to check the flywheel part numbers to make sure it is the same for 3 amp systems and 15 amp systems  (Differing magnet patterns??).  Install a regulator and rewire your headlights.

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Posted (edited)

What do you think the diode is? The diode is the rectifier. There is only .2 volt being made therefore the battery isn't going to see anything off the stator.  If you do a check per your post #37 do test 4 and I'll bet money there is an open meaning the stator is open.  Refer to my post #50 and you will see a diode is a rectifier.

 

Will all respect.... those attempting to troubleshoot must understand basic electronics.  A rectifier is an electrical device that converts alternating current, which periodically reverses direction, to direct current, which flows in only one direction. (Simple 1/2 wave rectifier)  Alternating current is available from the stator granted the stator isn't open. The diode converts AC to DC thus providing DC to charge the battery.

Edited by 6bg6ga

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3 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

In the mean time wonder if a diode could be added to the stator wire feeding the light switch and use that wire to charge the battery?

 

Garry

Not a great solution. The best solution is to enact a proper repair.

To be blunt the original design is flawed at best. They should have made only a 15A system to take care of the charging needs  instead of saving a few bucks by offering something less than adequate.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, 6bg6ga said:

What do you think the diode is? The diode is the rectifier. There is only .2 volt being made therefore the battery isn't going to see anything off the stator.  If you do a check per your post #37 do test 4 and I'll bet money there is an open meaning the stator is open.  Refer to my post #50 and you will see a diode is a rectifier.

 

Will all respect.... those attempting to troubleshoot must understand basic electronics.  A rectifier is an electrical device that converts alternating current, which periodically reverses direction, to direct current, which flows in only one direction. (Simple 1/2 wave rectifier)  Alternating current is available from the stator granted the stator isn't open. The diode converts AC to DC thus providing DC to charge the battery.

 I suppose I should have used the term rectifier-regulator to be precise and follow Kohlers nomenclature.  Sorry but most of us view a rectifier on a Wheel Horse as large finned device (K series...Magnum rectifiers are a bit smaller) that regulates the voltage and controls the charging of the battery.  Maybe a bit over simplified but it works for many of us.

 

The 3 amp unregulated system has worked just fine on my 310-8 for over 30 years.

Edited by pfrederi

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I'm just trying to help. There is a difference between a diode as rectification and a rectifier regulator.  Actually a 1/2 wave rectifier circuit contains a smoothing capacitor.  The diode in the 310's charging system simply converts AC to DC.  You sir do understand the difference it would seem. Others don't and that is why I tried to make a point.

 

The 15A reftified regulated system should have been the norm. It is unfortunate that some bean counters probably got their hands into the mix and said we can save a few dollars and offer this cheaper way to go. 

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17 hours ago, pfrederi said:

 I suppose I should have used the term rectifier-regulator to be precise and follow Kohlers nomenclature.  Sorry but most of us view a rectifier on a Wheel Horse as large finned device (K series...Magnum rectifiers are a bit smaller) that regulates the voltage and controls the charging of the battery.  Maybe a bit over simplified but it works for many of us.

 

The 3 amp unregulated system has worked just fine on my 310-8 for over 30 years.

 

I'm sure the 3A system has worked for you for years.  Each owner operator may have different needs. Will the 3A keep up with the current draw off the lights? One should check to see what the draw is. One must also consider that 15A regulated would be a lot better and insure that the battery is always charged despite the load. 

22 hours ago, krb said:

Not gotten another meter to compare yet but AC voltage at anode end is 0.109-0.120 on the 2V scale, doesn't register on the 200V scale. I checked it against 120V house current and the meter appears accurate.

 

So I guess we have the problem isolated to the stator or recitifier huh?

 

There is another possibility here.... You could remove the stator. You could disassemble it counting the number of turns on each pole. Purchase the same gauge/diameter solid enameled wire and simply repair it.  

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, 6bg6ga said:

 

I'm sure the 3A system has worked for you for years.  Each owner operator may have different needs. Will the 3A keep up with the current draw off the lights? One should check to see what the draw is. One must also consider that 15A regulated would be a lot better and insure that the battery is always charged despite the load. 

 

There is another possibility here.... You could remove the stator. You could disassemble it counting the number of turns on each pole. Purchase the same gauge/diameter solid enameled wire and simply repair it.  

The lights run off a separate portion of the stator and do not use the battery charging circuit.  It is a mag engine so there is no draw while it is running. The only battery load is cranking the engine. I use my 310-8 as a chore tractor lots of starting and stopping.  Never had a problem with the 3 amp system not keeping the battery up.

Edited by pfrederi

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Posted (edited)
On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 7:35 AM, pfrederi said:

The lights run off a separate portion of the stator and do not use the battery charging circuit.  It is a mag engine so there is no draw while it is running. The only battery load is cranking the engine. I use my 310-8 as a chore tractor lots of starting and stopping.  Never had a problem with the 3 amp system not keeping the battery up.

 

 

 

 

My suggestions are as follows.... Either replace it with a like stator, rebuild the bad stator, or upgrade the stator to a 15A unit. I would opt for the 15A package simply because it gives you additional capabilities. I do realize the 3A circuit is enough to charge the battery if the battery is in good condition. However, as the battery ages its going to require more in order to obtain maximum life. I've noted my thoughts and now the ball is in your field.  If you do opt to rebuild the stator I'll be there to lend any help you need. I personally encourage people to try things even if they are outside your comfort range. If you do go the rebuild route let me know and I'll see if I can scrounge some enameled wire for the project.

Edited by 6bg6ga

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, 6bg6ga said:

 

Edited by pfrederi

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9 hours ago, pfrederi said:

 

 

The reason should be obvious but I will explain anyway. The reason I mentioned checking the current draw on the lights is simple. Never assume that someone HASN'T had their hands in things changing the bulbs possibly or even going to the extent of changing them completely thus a change in current draw possibly over the design spec. With these little tractors possibly being used these days for even more chores its possible they have been modified and one of these little modification may very well have been changing either to bulbs that would actually allow one to see and drive in the dark via a bulb change, bulb and socket change , or a retro fit of another lamp within the factory enclosure or the replacement of the lamp assembly with something that is obvious  and shows up as a design change.

 

This is exactly why I always push the idea  of checking and NEVER making an assumption that things are normal. This is even more fuel to repair the stator, replace the stator with the original type, or retro fit a 15A unit with the rectifier/regulator box which entails a slight modification of the electrical circuit.

 

I lot of these tractors out there have had multiple owners over the years been traded been abused and molested. Never assume anything including that the engine is necessarily the original or even the electrical harness is original. This is still why I do not try to group faults as to a specific model and or engine combination. The power of observation is the best tool you have. The ability to troubleshoot without the use of a schematic first is one of your strongest tools. A fool assumes nothing has been changed and everything is original. A true troubleshooter uses observation.

 

This thread went thru a lot of posts before it was determined that the engine didn't have a rectifier/regulator box attached to the tin housing around the engine. Simple observation would have pointed out that there was no rectifier/regulator box that was cooled by the flywheel fan on the engine so if it wasn't there it was only logical the rectifier was a simple diode and as a result of the battery reading the diode needed to be tested.....thus the diode test. The diode test was good. the next logical step was to confirm the presence of AC from the stator with a simple AC test stator lead to ground the result exposed a stator fault. 

 

I will back track a little....when no rectifier/regulator box was found one could if in doubt consult the manual to see where the diode was possibly hiding. This could have possibly exposed another flaw. What if an owner changed, modified the diode location. One should then google what the diode possibly looks like and go from there.

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I'm digging in to see what the stator looks like and the connections there.

 

Any tips for pulling the flywheel? Or a good link? I assume it needs to be indexed?

 

Thanks for all yourall's help and advice, I've learned a lot.

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There is a  key.  Impact wrench works best to get the nut off.

 

Have you looked at the engine service manual it shows the steps.

 

 

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Got the puller on the flywheel earlier in the week. Been spraying the shaft and applying pressure. Hope to pop it off this weekend.

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OK, not the best pictures but it's a flip phone - or an Iflip as I like to call it...

 

Anyway, part of the stator stayed with the block and part stuck to the flywheel - but is that all of it? is there another third that is supposed to be there? Not looked at the manual yet. And there appears to be a magnet missing? Again, not checked the manual to see what it started out with. Plus I found an odd bolt stuck to the magnet and no idea where it is from...

 

So, guess we are needing a new stator. Just need to decide if we stay OEM or upgrade and modify.

And also wondering - if we taped off the leads to the stator for now, it will still run and operate but just not charge right?

 

Looking at the schematics, what is left is complete, the 10 winds, just in pieces now.

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Posted (edited)

I believe you are missing a magnet.

 

Your engine has a magneto so the only electrical load on the system is cranking the engine (assuming you said you never used the lights).  I put electric start on my L107 about 14 years ago but didn't add a charging system,  (My father bought her new in 1967 and was way to frugal to spring for electric start,  i am a bit less frugal:P)..  she is used year round several times a week.  I have to charge the battery every 3 months or so.  I think i just put in my 3rd battery in that time.

 

Your machine will run just fine with the wires taped off  just charge the battery every so often. 

 

The only concern i would have is the flywheel is somewhat out a balance from the missing magnet ...but it has been running that way for an extended period.

Edited by pfrederi

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As was suggested in the above post you can live without it providing your not trying to run lights. To repair it is going to mean that either you are lucky enough  to come up with the missing magnet or up pop for a used or new flywheel and this is in addition to the new stator. As to engine imbalance...... its going to make a very slight difference one that you will notice especially when you can experience a like engine that is 100%.

 

If you feel the need to repair the charging system I would upgrade it but then that's me. I like things to work right and not have to remember oh ya I forgot to charge the battery and now it won't start.   Krb.. do what your comfortable doing.

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It's been running like that for years. Might have even gotten it that way. If the parts let loose while I was on it I never noticed and you'd think you would unless it was just a few little pieces at a time. It did vibrate but we had nothing to compare it to.

 

I only ran it for a little bit last night and it seemed to be smoother. Then the governor rod plastic keeper let loose and while patching that the throttle cable broke...

 

Guess we'll be looking for a used stator at least. Doubt we can find a magnet so probably have to source a used flywheel as well. Guess we'll look for OEM as well as an upgrade and see which we come across first/cheapest.

 

BTW - the manual referenced above helped with flywheel removal but specifies K models and the torque rating for the flywheel bolt ranged from 45-90ftlbs. Anybody know offhand what it is for the Magnum 10? I set it at 50 for now.

 

Thanks again,

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Oh wow. Thanks!

 

I searched the threads but not the site, guess I need to familiarize myself more.

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We have been looking to pick up a used stator, magnet, etc.

 

My brother finally found a stator and flywheel for a decent price. So now we have the parts for a 15 amp system. I know we now need a regulator and I guess we'll need to modify the wiring some.

 

Any tips appreciated from those of you that have done this.

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