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1967 857

1967 857 Will Not Start

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On my digital 1.0 is an open circuit you should get some decimal reading close to 0.  Could be a field coil failure as it should be grounded..(No resistance)   Sounds like it time to take it in.

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See the bottom of my post # 50...cranking the engine using another tractor..  :)  I used this method to get my Tecumseh pull starts running.

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I'd pull that genny and take it to  a shop that specializes in auto electric repair like All Tech in Danbury and have them test it.

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Pfrederi - Yep, kind of have that feeling now too.  Will remove the S/G this weekend find a shop to give it a look. 

 

THANK YOU for the input and guidance!  

 

Steveasaurus - Very, very creative solution!  I have an old Craftsman with an 18.5 HP horizontal shaft Briggs and Stratton - so, lining up the belts would be a bit challenging.  But nonetheless, a very creative approach!

 

THANK YOU for your input and guidance too!

 

To everyone who offered up their expertise - accept my appreciation!  Glad I found this site - a wealth of hard-earned knowledge and expertise. One heck of a super site. 

 

I'll post an update once the little guy fires up!

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I am back in the house and we are getting to the limits of my knowledge,  The lack of grounding for the field coil is an issue.  no ground it will not create the electro magnetism needed to run.  The ground is controlled by the voltage regulator if it is stuck open no ground and no electro magnet.  Use a small jumper wire to ground the F terminal to a known good ground or the battery the one last time jump from the battery positive to the A terminal.  After that I give up and take mine to my S/G guy

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Squonk - Thank you!  Just looked "All Tech" up on the interweb......not too far away.  Path of least resistance (pun intended) at this point. Will have them test and give it a once over this weekend!

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One thing...you can use a piece of rope if you do not have a long enough belt.  This is like bypassing the starter.  If it starts and runs, you know it is the starter.  The link I put in gives you some numbers for parts.  Let us know...this was a lot of fun today...it is cold outside here.  Thanks for being so receptive to all of our ideas.  :)

 

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If you remove the genny to get tested make sure you bring along the regulator for it too! :)

39 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

I am back in the house and we are getting to the limits of my knowledge,  The lack of grounding for the field coil is an issue.  no ground it will not create the electro magnetism needed to run.  The ground is controlled by the voltage regulator if it is stuck open no ground and no electro magnet.  Use a small jumper wire to ground the F terminal to a known good ground or the battery the one last time jump from the battery positive to the A terminal.  After that I give up and take mine to my S/G guy

Paul if I'm not mistaken the "F" terminal has nothing to do with it cranking. The battery voltage from the start position of the switch goes thru the start coil and grounds thru the armature and other brush? 

 

stater_gen1.thumb.gif.28b9859e1328986c59

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quickest way to go / no go a generator

battery jumper cables on battery

negative battery cable to generator case (clean metal on mounting foot of generator)

positive battery cable to generator "A" terminal

 

don't worry about the color of the paint.

 

 

genchk.png

Edited by Save Old Iron
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Good evening Gents!

 

Removed the S/G from my 1967 857 on Friday and, at the suggestion of SQUONK, took it to All Tech Auto/Truck Electronics, Inc. in Danbury, CT.   At present, I await news from All Tech once they bench test the unit.  Let's see what they have to say and take it from there .

 

I will keep this thread up to date on findings and next step!

 

 

 

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And good evening again!

 

I picked up my re-built (and re-painted) S/G from the guys at All Tech Auto/Truck Electronics this evening.  New bearings, armature, paint and bench tested - $175.00 with tax.

 

Tomorrow, I will install and, I hope, fire up the 857.

 

Will let you know the outcome!

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Did they say if anything was wrong with it? A new armature, that sounded pretty 

serious. 

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New armature....I was betting on the field coils having to be replaced...that is why I stay away from casinos and race tracks:P

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VICTORY.......of sorts!

 

Installed the re-built (and tested, including the voltage regulator) S/G, double checked all connections and (with a jump from my SUV), my 857 fired up and ran like a vintage sewing machine. 

 

Beautiful sound.

 

I say victory of sorts because the new battery, is not holding a charge.  Specifically, with a jump, the engine roars to life.  I drove the tractor around for a good 15 minutes, turned the engine off, let it sit a moment, turn the key,.......and nothing (S/G does not engage).  Battery shows 12 volts. With a jump, she fires up just fine.  

 

Sorry to bug you guys - any suggestions?

 

SQUONK: To your question, yes - it failed the bench test (did not turn, did not charge) and the bearings "were shot". 

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Figure a picture of the tractor at this point, is due........seat if off currently.  Wire brushing the seat tray and the fenders.  May reupholster the seat. Leaving her just the way she is - all stock (minus the rebuilt S/G), cigarette lighter works and all original Wheel Horse tires too.

 

 

IMG_0468.jpg

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Fully charged Battery should be 12.6 volts at rest.  What is yours reading.  Secondly what is voltage while machine is running.  Should be around 13.5-14 volts.

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Thanks PFREDERI:

 

As it sits in the tractor now (not running), the battery shows 11.9 volts.  When machine is running (half to full throttle), voltage (as measured at the battery's terminals) is 9.25 volts.

 

Don't tell me where back to the S/G.......I know the starter works......could the generator be at fault?

 

I put the new battery on a charger so that it is fully charged.

Edited by 1967 857
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I would imagine that you have the wiring diagram, but just in case...

Nice looking 857 you have there.  Does your generator light come on??  :)

    This is from that link I put in on the top of page 2...

Troubleshooting Charging:

1. With the engine running more than half throttle, measure the voltage at the A terminal, it should be 13 to 14.5 volts.  If it is 12.5 or less, ground the F terminal, if the voltage goes up to 13 to 14.5, most likely the problem is the regulator. Other possibilities are the wire from the F terminal to the voltage regulator, and the ground on the regulator not being good.  If the voltage at the A terminal is 14.5 to 17 volts when you ground the F terminal, the regulator cut-out section is probably not connecting the A terminal to the battery.  If the unit is measuring 13 to 14.5 volts at the A [without an external ground applied to the F terminal] terminal, the voltage measured at the battery should be within .1 or.2 volts of the voltage measured at the A terminal, if it is the system is working correctly.

2. If the unit fails the above tests, disconnect it and remove it.  Using an ohmmeter, measure the resistance between the F terminal and the A terminal.  A normal reading would be 7 to 15 ohms.  If it measures less than that remove the end frame and pull the armature assemble out and look at the field coil connected to the F terminal.  If the insulation is scorched, or it looks as if it has been overheated it is probably shorted.

3. Inspect the brushes for wear or the leads being loose in the carbon.  Look at the sides of the brushes to be sure the sides haven't worn into the indentations in the holders causing the brushes to "Hang Up".

4. With the armature out, use the ohmmeter to check from the copper commutator bars to the armature laminations or the shaft.  It should show no resistance, infinity.  If the reading is 0 ohms you have a shorted armature.  If it is 40 or more ohms, it probably has carbon dust between the commutator bars and the frame or shaft.  Blow it out all around the commutator and windings.  Be warned this dust is black and messy, so do it where it won’t make a mess.  Blow the field housing out at this time also.  If these two tests are OK, the armature needs to be "GROWLED." This checks for shorted turns, and shorted bars in the armature. This requires a growler to do this test. Any good starter shop will have one.  If the field coil needs to be replaced, one will likely need a pole shoe screw remover.  This is a clamp device with a screwdriver bit on a wrench that clamps the bit in the head of the screw to remove the pole shoe that holds in the field coil.  Sometimes they will come out with an impact wrench, but when the pole shoe is reinstalled one needs to be sure they it is installed perfectly straight or it will hit on the armature if the curve is not exactly parallel with the armature.  At this point for most people, this would be a "take it to the shop" job.

5.  Check the bushing in the end plate for looseness.  If the bushing needs to be replaced one needs a blind bushing puller which costs $400.00, so this is another "shop job."

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Stevasaurus - Thank you. 

 

Yes, the generator light comes on and remains on while the tractor is running.

 

I'm charging the battery now, will run through item #1 later this afternoon - that is a pretty comprehensive trouble shooting guide. 

 

As the S/G was re-manufactured this week (cleaned, re-painted, new bearings, new armature, successfully tested along with the voltage regulator), I sure hope its not the S/G.

 

I called the guys who re-built the S/G at All Tech (Danbury, CT) to let them know I'm seeing 9.5 volts at the battery when the tractor is running. They stand by their work (and their testing of the unit) and are willing to give the S/G a look. If I have to bring it back, I will bring a copy of the trouble-shooting guide you provided!

 

UPDATE:  I removed the (new) battery and returned it to NAPA Auto Parts, exchanged it for a new one.  Measured the voltage at the battery (12.3 volts) before starting then after starting (12.5 volts).   Will run the tractor about the property for a while and try starting again tonight!

 

Edited by 1967 857
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Did the shop replace the Voltage regulator?  Did they polarize the unit?  My guy does it automatically for what ever ground i told him the unit was using.  Lots of older equipment had positive grounds.  Yours has a negative ground. Did they ask or did you tell them.  If they didn't know they may not have polarized it.

 

I would do the following in sequence.

1. Polarize the unit

To polarize a generator on a tractor having a Delco 12V negative ground system, attach one clip to the A terminal on the generator. With the other clip, briefly for only a split-second(or a spark occurs) tap the positive( + ) terminal on the battery.
 

2.. Test voltage while running at 2/3- full throttle.  If you do not get at least 13.5  next step

 

3.  Do the grounding of the field terminal test.  While running voltage should go up to 14 or more.

 

4.  Take it back to the repairr shop report results of 1-3.

 

 

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I was talking with RacinBob about this today and he brought up the polarization thingy.  :)  Need to check that out.  As far as getting the new battery  :handgestures-thumbupright:......from what I am reading in the link...the charging system from the regulator only kicks in when the battery needs charging.  Has to do with running at full throttle.  I am thinking you may have got a bad battery.  Did you look at the wiring diagram and make sure it is correct??  That link has a ton of information in it...I read part of it when I posted it and read the rest of it today...it even gets into the regulator.  Pretty in depth...I think I read a lot of it 2 or 3 times. :)  We have to be close to getting you Red Squared Away.  :handgestures-thumbupright:

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13 hours ago, 1967 857 said:

with a jump, the engine roars to life.  I drove the tractor around for a good 15 minutes, turned the engine off, let it sit a moment, turn the key,.......and nothing (S/G does not engage).  Battery shows 12 volts. With a jump, she fires up just fine.  

 

 

When you jump start the tractor, where EXACTLY do you put the jumper cable plus and minus clamps?

 

both at the battery on the battery cable terminals? (this is the right answer by the way)

 

minus to the tractor frame, plus to the SG?

minus to the tractor frame, plus to the battery?

 

minus right on the SG case and "A" terminal?

 

EXACTLY where you place the jumper cables can tell us a great deal about what works and what is still questionable in the electrical system.

 

And yes, an SG can work perfectly fine as a starter and not function properly as a generator.

 

Quick sanity check - place a jumper wire from the SG mounting bolt (ground) to the SG "F" terminal. This mimics the startup default electrical status of the regulator assembly

Place the voltmeter leads DIRECTLY ON THE BATTERY POSTS - NOT THE CABLE TERMINALS.

Try to crank the engine. If the battery voltage dives down below 9 volts, bad battery.

If the battery voltage does not change at all, bad wiring or ignition switch.

 

Of course, remove the F terminal to mounting bolt jumper after this test as with this jumper in place, the SG will be producing over 15 volts output.

 

I'll be in and out this weekend, will check in when I can.

Chuck

 

 

Edited by Save Old Iron
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13 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

I was talking with RacinBob about this today and he brought up the polarization thingy.  :)  Need to check that out. 

No need Steve, regulators do not require polarization and the SG would not "motor" if the field shoes did not have residual magnetism.

 

When you hook an SG up onto the tractor, you are forced to ground the SG body (thru the tractor frame).

With the ignition switch wired to the A terminal, turning the ignition switch to the START position, you force "flashing" of the armature and the field to the correct polarity every time you start the tractor.

 

Self flashing does not happen on type B generators, Ford type generators or AC based home generators. You end up hearing success stories about how someone's uncle Mo had to flash his tractor regulator and generator, and this means uncle Mo probably had a Ford with a B style generator. Uncle Mo may have had to flash his home generator also to get it to produce AC but that is an entirely different story. The Delco type A gens on WH tractors are "self flashing" in the sense they are connected thru the ignition switch and the regulator to steer themselves in the right direction in regards to output polarity. As far as output from the generator, as long as the pole shoes have the least bit of residual magnetism and the fields are functional, the gen will spin up and produce a charge current in the right polarity and strength. Pole shoes are not likely to loose residual magnetism. How often do you find it necessary to re-magnitize a magnetic screwdriver?

 

 

 

14 hours ago, pfrederi said:

To polarize a generator on a tractor having a Delco 12V negative ground system, attach one clip to the A terminal on the generator. With the other clip, briefly for only a split-second(or a spark occurs) tap the positive( + ) terminal on the battery.

 

Look closely at  a wiring diagram for WH SG based tractors.

Does this not happen by default every single time you turn the ignition switch to START?

The only time flashing may be required is if a rebuilder slaps in a new armature and field shoes (both having no significant residual magnetism when they are new) and hands you the SG without testing it after the repair.

Edited by Save Old Iron
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7 hours ago, Save Old Iron said:

No need Steve, regulators do not require polarization and the SG would not "motor" if the field shoes did not have residual magnetism.

 

When you hook an SG up onto the tractor, you are forced to ground the SG body (thru the tractor frame).

With the ignition switch wired to the A terminal, turning the ignition switch to the START position, you force "flashing" of the armature and the field to the correct polarity every time you start the tractor.

 

Self flashing does not happen on type B generators, Ford type generators or AC based home generators. You end up hearing success stories about how someone's uncle Mo had to flash his tractor regulator and generator, and this means uncle Mo probably had a Ford with a B style generator. Uncle Mo may have had to flash his home generator also to get it to produce AC but that is an entirely different story. The Delco type A gens on WH tractors are "self flashing" in the sense they are connected thru the ignition switch and the regulator to steer themselves in the right direction in regards to output polarity. As far as output from the generator, as long as the pole shoes have the least bit of residual magnetism and the fields are functional, the gen will spin up and produce a charge current in the right polarity and strength. Pole shoes are not likely to loose residual magnetism. How often do you find it necessary to re-magnitize a magnetic screwdriver?

 

 

 

Look closely at  a wiring diagram for WH SG based tractors.

Does this not happen by default every single time you turn the ignition switch to START?

The only time flashing may be required is if a rebuilder slaps in a new armature and field shoes (both having no significant residual magnetism when they are new) and hands you the SG without testing it after the repair.

SOI:  Yes that came to me about 2:30 this morning..when I do my best thinking.

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