Help Identifying year/model WH

[Dhodge 528]

Personally I believe it is an original motor.  I believe a few Clinton B-1290's made it on 1961 models.  I have one like it too

[WHX?? 46,797]

Well I'll be darned... maybe the 60 & 61  Suburbans with a Clinton aren't as rare as I thought.
Your serial isn't too far off from Joe's 60610

Nice tractor by the way

Edited August 28, 2015 by WHX4

[Racinbob 10,281]

NICE Dhodge! I would never say with any conviction that it's not original nor would I say it is. Who could know for sure unless they actually bought it new. I remember my Dad bringing home our first Wheel Horse. It was a brand new 1960 Suburban 400. That started my addiction at the ripe old age of 5. I sure as heck don't remember the details that always come up in question about what was original. Clintons were big players way back then and very popular. I can't help but believe that Wheel Horse used up their stock in 1960 and who knows if they happened to find a few more so they put them on 61's. Or, maybe an out of box failure for the Kohler and the dealer had a Clinton on his shelf and used it. Growing up a stones throw from the factory we knew many folks that worked there. But it wasn't a hobby then and many of them got a kick out of this young kid who loved playing with little red tractors. During the 60's and 70's who's to say with certainty what was done to them. One factory worker that was just down the road could have opened up a Wheel Horse parts business with all the new parts in his garage. Yup, probably brought home in his lunch box. Many times my Dad would call him seeing if he had something for the 400 and then a 704. Who knows if it was correct for the year but we didn't care at the time.

Again Dhodge, I'm certainly not saying your Clinton isn't original but I do know I wouldn't change one thing on your 61. That's one of the finest era correct Wheel Horses I've seen and I love it.

[Joebrew1 30]

The other motor is also a Clinton engine. I have the original foot pegs but took them off so I could machine a matching set for my 701 WH. 

[Joebrew1 30]

Sorry I meant 702. 
Yes the steering wheel has some black tape on there. 

[Brian01 481]

I likes it....I likes it a lot!

[slammer302 2,154]

I would like to change my estimation on value too priceless thats a nice looking horse and the deck looks very solid that thing would look great mowing sum grass

[Joebrew1 30]

I should put the deck on there and at least try it out. Maybe my wife would let me just buy the other one I want. Lol probably not after what kind of homemade skidsteer I'm bringing home tomorrow. Lol

[slammer302 2,154]

OOOHHH YAHHHH go for it!!

[Joebrew1 30]

This is what I found for a few hundred. owner told me its a 1966 855

[Brian01 481]

BUY Them!!! The sickle is worth that!

[slammer302 2,154]

Thats a good horse too the k181 kohler engine is very good. I think you need both

Edited August 29, 2015 by slammer302

[Joebrew1 30]

I pick it up next week. Plus two boxes of spare parts come with it. cant wait to put the sickle bar on and try it out. 

[Brian01 481]

You won't like it....just ship it to me...lmao

[wallfish 15,926]

Right on Bob as my early '60 has the Clinton but this is a '61 fer sure...note the 61 style dash.... so maybe someone swapped the motor??  The other alternative of course would have been a k90/91. This gem should have had the fenders/box so thats a minus.

What is the other motor you have Joe?

If you are interested in selling let me know as I would be  interested in taking a look at it.

Your affliction is showing Brian .... course being quick to a find is how we get them!

Some 401s had Clinton 1290 engines from the factory.  Bet that engine is original to the tractor.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

I've followed this with considerable interest.  It's great that a picture can be posted, an ID requested and within minutes RedSquare is on it and someone states model and year!  It would be most wonderful if that ALSO came with all the reasons why it was that particular model/year and not some other model or year.  If I could have seen the front axle better I could have instantly determined that it was a Suburban but I'm very weak on the other identification clues.  So far I've gleaned:

"1961 based on the hood and belt guard" are different than the 60," 
"note the 61 style dash"

I've got some of that in my notes and now I and others know to look for those differences, but until I review and find and compare to a 1960 I (and many others!) won't know what they are!  I'm still working on the WH ID Project, though a bit pressed for time, but I would like to summarize what I've gathered pretty soon for at least through the Suburbans.  Now might be a great time for everyone to share in detail all the reasons why this is a 1961 and why it is not a 1960.  If you have pictures depicting those differences (Bless You!) perhaps you could include them as well?

Maybe we can once, and if not for all, accurately detail the differences between the 1960 and 1961.  One of the reasons this is SO interesting is that I/we also learn what is NOT in the charts, what is NOT generally known but also learn of the exceptions!  Forces us to look at the whole picture.  I would have looked at the axle, but I couldn't see it.  Someone else would have looked at the engine said either not original or not a Suburban!  I LOVE it!  Some look at this, others at that but I think the combination of knowledge here knows just about everything there is to know about Wheel Horses!

Please share all you can about the Suburbans and I will do my best to organize it and ship it back.  If we have pictures with descriptions all the better!

 

[953 nut 51,721]

The other motor is also a Clinton engine. I have the original foot pegs but took them off so I could machine a matching set for my 701 WH. 

The foot rests in your picture are from a later model, perhaps a 1965 to 1968, nothing wrong with them, I have them on my 400 Suburban.

[wallfish 15,926]

Some differences between years
61 suburban - cast clutch pedal, push/pull controls, rounded cast foot rests, 551 is only mid engine tractor that has 2 pc trans
60 suburban - bent steel clutch pedal, lever controls, rectangle foot rests made of diamond plate steel

Dhodge's pic also shows the early 61 foot rests which are straight up and down, later they were angled a few degrees with the top pointed outward.

Edited August 29, 2015 by wallfish

[Racinbob 10,281]

Dennis, these two statements actually mean the same thing since the 'dash' is part of the hood:

"1961 based on the hood and belt guard" are different than the 60," 
"note the 61 style dash"

60's had lever controls and 61's had push/pull controls. The footrests are different. 60's were bent diamond plate and 61's cast. A quick search in the gallery will show you. As Richard said, the footrests in post #30 are mid 60's.

As far as the engines go...again, there is no documentation showing anything but Kohlers and Teckys on the 60/61 Suburbans. As I said before, it's commonly said that leftover Clintons from the RJ years made it on early 60's. I think that's likely but I strongly doubt it on 61's but it really can't be said with certainty either way. Well over 50 years means a lot of changes and part swapping. There's a guy on the Clinton forum who put a Clinton on a 401 as well as a 702.

As a guy who was playing with Wheel Horses in the 60's and 70's I can assure you that I wasn't the only one combining parts from different years because I perceived them as better or I just liked them better. The 72 Commando I restored for my grandson is just one example. Now you could call it a Commando B-80. I have no doubt that many things were done to these old tractors 50 years ago and over time it faded into factory original. Just another cool but sometimes confusing aspect to this addiction.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

Some differences between years
61 suburban - cast clutch pedal, push/pull controls, rounded cast foot rests, 551 is only mid engine tractor that has 2 pc trans
60 suburban - bent steel clutch pedal, lever controls, rectangle foot rests made of diamond plate steel

THANK YOU wallfish!!

The other motor is also a Clinton engine. I have the original foot pegs but took them off so I could machine a matching set for my 701 WH. 

The foot rests in your picture are from a later model, perhaps a 1965 to 1968, nothing wrong with them, I have them on my 400 Suburban.

See!  This is the kind of thing that makes this IDing interesting but it also drives me NUTS trying to document it!  "The foot rests in your picture are from a later model, perhaps a 1965 to 1968,"!!!!!
I think you know I follow a lot of your posts (and for good reasons!)  

Edited August 29, 2015 by DennisThornton
corrections

[wallfish 15,926]

The Clinton engine thing on the 401 has been discussed before between many of the long time collectors and the consensus points to them being a factory supplied engine. I also have a Clinton powered 401 (although I switched it to a K91). rj35hunter (Clay) keeps a list of serial numbers from these engines. Too bad he's not as active on here as he used to be since his depth of knowledge is deep. Back in the day, I used to read and research everything I could find concerning the 58 - 61 because I own those tractors. It's also easy to know the differences when you take them apart and put them back together so many times.
There are many things with these old tractors which will not be in any Wheel Horse documentation, such as the solid seat pan. It was definitely an evolving production run which made changes during the year of building tractors. Especially in the early years. This is what makes it more interesting!

[Racinbob 10,281]

Please don't take what I said wrong John. I'm not saying it's not factory. I'm really referring to the overall identifying thing. It's that I feel it's very difficult to say with certainty on some items. The seat pan is another excellent example, the lift sector on late RJ's........etc.. I toured the plant when it was in South Bend and, even some years later than the ones we're talking about here, it was very easy to see how the workers could induce the anomalies that we see so often. When I got my 400 the guy also had a running Clinton sitting by it and asked if I wanted it. Like an idiot I told him no.

[wallfish 15,926]

Didn't take it the wrong way at all Bob!
Only wanted to point out that many changes never made their way into any WH documentation. Just sharing some information I've learned. I wasn't trying to say you were wrong but more or less wanted to explain my understanding of it. But like you said, we can't be 100% sure either way on MANY things. This is exactly how most of these discussions get started and then hopefully, more people will join in with their knowledge and then we get closer to a definitive answer. Unfortunately without that documentation, all we can do is get closer but never be 100% sure.

[Racinbob 10,281]

Thanks John and very well put. Sometimes I stumble wording things and my intent is easily taken wrong. Never 100% sure is exactly what I was trying to say. I'm not sure when in 1960 my 400 was made but I have to wonder if that Clinton sitting there was the original for it. The K91 that was on the tractor wasn't the correct spec but it runs good and I didn't think about the possibility of the Clinton. The tractor was an Ebay find that surprised me by being just 15 miles away (yea, in Florida at that). I contacted him and then went to look at it. I did have his email and I searched for it this morning because I was going to see if he still had the Clinton by some chance but I don't have the email anymore and he has moved back up north.

[Dhodge 528]

One thing I have notice in differences between the 60 and 61 Suburban's is that the 60's have a crease on the front top of the hood that stops at the gas cap and the 61's it continues down the rest of the hood.  I think this was just a strengthening crease to stiffen up the metal.