Won't crank with key and no start when jumping starter relay.......

[some-beach! 0]

  Posted in the 'Introduction' section with little help so.........

 

  Just went and picked up Dad's old WH 417A

 

  It had been sitting outside [covered until the tarp disintegrated] a few years

 

  Got home, battery still had a little charge left ~ put it on charger and it fully charged

 

  Turn key, headlights come on with switch but nothing on the Start position

 

  I've printed out the wiring diagram for this 417 mower and checked everything

 

  I found the park brake safety switch and seat safety switch had been bypassed so I clipped and redid the connections

 

  Nothing new.............. tried to find a PTO and Neutral safety switch but see nothing......

 

  I jumped the starter solenoid with a screwdriver and it cranks great but no spark/no start of course

 

  Removed and cleaned up ignition switch ~ still nothing

 

  I don't know..............

Edited October 20, 2014 by some-beach!

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

  Posted in the 'Introduction' section with little help so.........

 

 

 

You never answered my question on your other post.

 

"If the battery has been severely discharged for several years, capacity or "cranking time" may be near zero.

Slow charge the battery and measure the voltage across the battery while cranking. Less than 10 volts indicates a compromised battery in need of replacement."

 

Your description of the problem started by describing poor cranking and issues with headlights, etc not working.

What I described is commonly termed a "poor man's load test".  We have to make sure the battery condition is good enough to allow accurate troubleshooting of the electrical system. Lead acid batteries that sit discharged for months and years rarely perform well under demand. Yes, they charge up (too quickly) and yes they measure 12 volts after the charge, but they cannot maintain voltage and current under demand.

 

Your non cranking issue may indeed be related to safety switches and we certainly can help you with that suspicion. We will likely have to revisit exactly how you bypassed the safety switches. Most folks do not truly understand how the switches function in the electrical system and randomly short out contacts or open up connections to the switches and hope for the best. 

 

 

Measure battery voltage at rest.

 

Measure the battery voltage while cranking the engine for 15 seconds - let the engine rest

 

Measure the battery voltage while cranking the engine after another 15 seconds.

 

Measure the battery at rest again.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

If you need another step to keep busy between answers

 

Temporarily connect a jumper between the battery [+] terminal and the ignition coil [+] terminal.

 

Try cranking the engine by jumping the starter solenoid and see if spark is present.

 

Remove the jumper after testing is finished.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Save Old Iron

[some-beach! 0]

    Hey, I saw your post but thought it was maybe a tease........ 

 

    I understand your points but I was and am certain the battery is good, fully charged and capable

 

   That said, I got back to it this afternoon and heeded your advice on jumping battery + to the coil +, poured a little gas down the carb, got the choke free'd up, set the throttle on high and cranked it by jumping the starter solenoid. I let it crank for 10 sec at a time and it finally fired off after about try #3. It sounded great but only ran for a few seconds [fuel related]. I then tried it without the coil jumped and again, with some fuel down the carb and jumping the solenoid it started after about try #3 again until the fuel poured in ran out ~ 5 sec max

 

    So, it seems I was getting spark [i swear I didn't see any] and the battery is good but it does nothing with the key turned to start and I've got a fuel issue

 

    The bypassed brake and seat safety switches  are cut and spliced. I took them apart, cut the wires back, spliced and re-taped them for now. They had apparently been cut year ago

 

    I'm excited, it ran great after sitting up 3-4 years and I'd like to bring it back to work maybe even restoring it as it's much deserved

 

    The 417 wiring diagram doesn't seem to have the same wiring colors [and/or it's very hard to tell] so I went by location mostly ~ furthest being the seat safety switch, next furthest the park brake safety switch but I never did locate a PTO or Neutral safety switch or wiring

 

    After asking Dad again today he said he just set the throttle, pulled the choke and turned the key and Varroom.............. so ??

 

    Thanks thus far

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Hey, I saw your post but thought it was maybe a tease........ 

 

In the many years I have been giving "long distance" advise, I'm embarrassed to say how many hours (mine and the owner's) were wasted on unproductive troubleshooting when false assumptions were made about the battery condition. Sulfated batteries will charge to 12.6 volts but nose dive below 9 volts when challenged by long term cranking demands.

 

 

 

heeded your advice on jumping battery + to the coil +........ and cranked it by jumping the starter solenoid .......fired off after about try #3.

tried it without the coil jumped and again ......jumping the solenoid it started after about try #3 again until the fuel poured in ran out ~ 5 sec max

    So, it seems I was getting spark [i swear I didn't see any] and the battery is good but it does nothing with the key turned to start and I've got a fuel issue

 

Correct, soak the carb in cleaner and perform a rebuild if necessary.  We can proceed on with the safety switch checks while the carb is soaking.

 

 

 

The 417 wiring diagram doesn't seem to have the same wiring colors [and/or it's very hard to tell] so I went by location mostly ~ furthest being the seat safety switch, next furthest the park brake safety switch but I never did locate a PTO or Neutral safety switch or wiring

 

PTO switches should be in the hoodstand and linked to the action of the PTO handle. Check up near the battery area. I do not have any experience with 417 neutral switches - someone else needs to chime in on this one. I imagine it is linked to the movement of the clutch pedal and is probably mounted in the area near the frame under the shifter plate.

 

 

After asking Dad again today he said he just set the throttle, pulled the choke and turned the key and Varroom.............. so ??

 

So - are we fixed now?  I'm not sure what you are asking.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Save Old Iron

[some-beach! 0]

Removed, soaked and clean carb and re-installed. It starts easier, runs great and is getting fuel

 

No progress on why it can't be started with the key.......

 

Still don't see a PTO switch and not sure there is a neutral safety switch on this hydromatic anyway

 

In mentioning how my father started it, I was referring to asking him if there was any trick or switch and he gave me his recount of how he started it ~ years ago, not presently

 

Thanks for the help. I may need to rewire the thing because I can't seem to get this wiring straight in my head. Wiring/Electrical is not my thing...........

     Adding to the above. The hydraulics seem stuck. The hydraulic deck [although deck is removed for now] is not responding and the brakes pedal is tight and had no hydraulic assist nor return

[km3h 543]

Check the voltage at the solenoid on the small post with the key on and then while attempting the crank the engine. I suspect there is a voltage drop here. If there is no voltage or low voltage, then use a jumper wire from the battery to this post. It should crank. I am assuming that when you say you jumped the solenoid, you simply crossed the battery cable to the starter cable.

 

If the hydraulic fluid is low it could cause the problem you describe. But I think you have a jammed brake rod. The Rod is next to the lift piston and might have come loose. You will have to remove the side cover to take a look at it but that is easy to do. This could jam the lift piston.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

A quick check of the starter relay can be accomplished as outlined below

 

 

the engine should crank as long as the trigger terminal is jumped to the battery stud on the relay. Remove the jumper if the engine starts.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

If the jumper to the trigger terminal works, then we are off to checking wiring and safety switches.

[some-beach! 0]

Okay, more toubleshooting this morning........

 

Voltage at solenoid good ~ nothing when jumped to the battery +

 

The only way I can get it to crank is jumpering the solenoid battery + terminal and starter terminal with a scewdriver and it cranks

 

I fiddled around with the PTO lever a few times trying to get it to crank with the key but still nothing and I don't see a safety switch

 

Thanks

[km3h 543]

Either you have a bad ground at the solenoid or it is bad. The solenoid gets ground by being attached to the frame in some manner. Check the continuity from one of the mounting bolts to the negative side of the battery. If you have continuity, replace the solenoid.

 

One thing to check first, is while attempting to crank the engine with the key switch, use a volt meter between the negative side of the battery and the center post of the solenoid. If you have a voltage drop, there is a problem between that wire and the switch. You could possibly have a bad ignition switch.  

[some-beach! 0]

No tests as of yet but in looking back I should have mentioned that once started by jumpering the solenoid with a screwdriver it does shut off with the key turned back. I suspect a safety switch and/or the solenoid itself but a good cleaning if the contacts might be my first approach. 

 

I did get the thing to move [engaging the PTO was a big help ~ duh] and drove it around. The hydraulic drive works great as does the hydraulic lift but the brake is still stiff and does not return without force, albeit the brake works when pushed hard. 

 

Just having a little fun for now until I get enough time to really dig into it. Neighbor had a yard sale today and 3 guys asked if I'd sell it............. Nah

Edited October 25, 2014 by some-beach!

[JustinW.73 224]

Look down at the break. Their usually is a safety switch that closes when pushing the break down. Sometimes, they can come out of adjustment. If this is your problem, just get rid of the switch and put a crimp connector and the two wires. 

[km3h 543]

Always a boost for your ego to have someone to buy what you have.

[some-beach! 0]

I'm not sure what that means................