mrc 724 #1 Posted January 4, 2014 hello men, i have a kohler powered 416-8 that has served me well for almost 2 decades. just normal maint. type of stuff. today was different though. i was plowing and went to back up. i let the clutch out and the engine died VERY abruptly! i mean shut off in a millisecond! when the engine died i felt/heard a wierd feeling /noise from under my seat. unidrive problem??? i restarted the tractor and when i let the clutch out same problem. i restarted again and with the tranny in neutral peered underneath and all seems normal. i then shifted to first gear and low range and now i cannot budge the shift lever or hi/lo range lever. using a floor jack i elevated the rear wheels. i can rotate them by hand with the tractor not running. the tractor if on the ground will not budge, rear wheels locked up. i'm thinking that when i let the clutch out somethings binding/broken in the unidrive which locks up the belt stalling the engine. any help is appreciated. thank you. mike in mass. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sparky-(Admin) 19,440 #2 Posted January 4, 2014 Are you positive that there wasn't water in it and something is froze? Its crazy cold here in New Emgland. Mike............... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrc 724 #3 Posted January 4, 2014 hi sparky, newer shift boot on tranny. checked dipstick and nothing but clean 90weight gear oil on stick. i'm going to tinker with it more today. thanks mike in mass. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc724 924 #4 Posted January 4, 2014 This is puzzling. The fact that is was running fine and then you shifted into reverse and had a problem tells me that it is a sudden failure. Also, you said the rear wheels turn when jacked up. If you turn one wheel, does the other turn-in the opposite direction? It should. You also said you cannot move the hi-lo lever. This is common and I have had to go forward (or backward) a little bit to get the pressure off the gears. However, in all the years I have never had a shift lever unable to move. So, I am thinking that either the shift lever has come out of position (that little set screw backed out-happened to me in a snow storm about 15 years ago), or the shift forks may have broken or jammed. The shift forks are pretty rugged, however, I have read many posts on RS where the shift forks were broken. The only way that I know of to tell if the shift forks are ok, is to visually inspect the forks by peering down the shift lever hole. In neutral, the two forks should be next to each other. If you want to see a pix, download the transmission repair manual in the manuals section of RS or do a search for broken forks. I know there are pix out there. On the positive side, it is going to warm up on Sunday and Monday-it will a least make trouble shooting more bearable. It was -9 here this morning, probably colder where you are. Keep us posted on the diagnostic journey. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevasaurus 22,229 #5 Posted January 4, 2014 (edited) Mike, I think you are going to have to tear into it. It is not ice, and I don't think it is your forks. The fact that you can hand turn a wheel just says that the insides of your differential are OK...as long as the other one spins in the opposite direction. If I had to guess, I would say that one of your #1533 ball bearings broke and 1 of the balls is jamming the teeth in one of the gears. There are 12 balls in each bearing. If that is the case, you are going to have to drag it back to the garage. Put the rear end on a couple of sleds if you can...you do not want to force it and break any teeth. Of course, it could be a broken tooth jamming things, but you will have to tear it down. When you get the horse to where you can work on it...block up the rear end and take the guard and belt off and try turning the input shaft in both directions...BY HAND. You just may get lucky and unstick what is jamming the trans. I had this happen to my 702 a few years ago. I had 12 of those little balls getting shot like out of a 22. They even got into the differential housing. I did not break any gears, but I replaced all of the bearings and seals. Runs great now. You can see the ball bearings laying on the differential housing. As you can see, one of those balls could easily jam a gear tooth. Edited January 4, 2014 by stevasaurus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
buckrancher 2,673 #6 Posted January 4, 2014 the ball on the end of the shift lever wears sometimes and you can get stuck between gears .pull the shift lever and look in the hole and see if the shifting forks are lined up you can move them with a big screwdriver to get back to neural Brian 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wallfish 15,907 #7 Posted January 4, 2014 the ball on the end of the shift lever wears sometimes and you can get stuck between gears .pull the shift lever and look in the hole and see if the shifting forks are lined up you can move them with a big screwdriver to get back to neural Brian This happened to me too because of a loose pin holding the shifter. Bet this is the issue Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevasaurus 22,229 #8 Posted January 4, 2014 So John and Brian...what is the bet??? I understand what you guys are talking about is the first thing to check, but understand, I love trying to guess what is wrong based on the information given. I think you need to read his first post again...there are some clues there. Actually, I hope you guys are right...much easier fix. A little Rock & Rye at the show??? Mike...regardless...your trans is fixable..help is here if you need it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
can whlvr 991 #9 Posted January 4, 2014 I agree with steve about having to tear into to it,2 weeks ago I was snow blowing and I heard an awful clunck from the tranny,i should have stopped then and there,i tried to drive it to the shop and only got half way when she locked up solid,long story short a nut came off fron the diff carrier and then the bolt ran through the gears,broke a cluster gear and bent the shaft that the gears run on that run against the diff,i have a spare tranny but now its only a parts tranny not a spare bolt on,so don't force it,or it could cost you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrc 724 #10 Posted January 5, 2014 hello again men, thank you doc724, steveasaurus,wallfish, can whlvr and buckrancher for responding. i will check out all your suggestions. i can add that yes, with the rear end jacked up and spinning one tire by hand the other wheel turns in the opposite direction. also with the engine running and the rear end elavated (remember the shifter is stuck in first gear) when i let the clutch out the engine abruptly dies. i spent most of the day working on my 56 willys plow truck. i have to work tomorrow too. i plan on monday to get it in the garage and check out all your suggestions. thanks again. stay tuned. mike in mass. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
buckrancher 2,673 #11 Posted January 5, 2014 So John and Brian...what is the bet??? I understand what you guys are talking about is the first thing to check, but understand, I love trying to guess what is wrong based on the information given. I think you need to read his first post again...there are some clues there. Actually, I hope you guys are right...much easier fix. A little Rock & Rye at the show??? Mike...regardless...your trans is fixable..help is here if you need it. Steve I'm not saying he will not have to tear the trans apart both times this happened to me it was because of worn parts not just the shift lever ball. the teeth on one of the cluster gears and/or 1st thru rev gears mike needs to remove the shift lever and look and see if the shifting forks are in there correct position(forming the small square for the shift lever ball to fit in) for neutral I believe what happens is one of the shifting forks moves to far and gets the trans stuck between two gears . the shift lever wont move out of gear as the fork has moved to far and the shift lever ball is ether almost out of the small square between forks so the angle is bad enough it cannt get it back in to position Brian 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevasaurus 22,229 #12 Posted January 5, 2014 I know Brian...I just like to try to guess what could be wrong (based on the information given). I am not real good at guessing, but I have been right once in a while. I like the way you guys are thinking also...extremely possible you guys nailed it. Good luck MRC...it is fixable for sure. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMC RULES 36,941 #13 Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) So John and Brian...what is the bet??? I understand what you guys are talking about is the first thing to check, but understand, I love trying to guess what is wrong based on the information given. I think you need to read his first post again...there are some clues there. Actually, I hope you guys are right...much easier fix. A little Rock & Rye at the show??? Mike...regardless...your trans is fixable..help is here if you need it. Steve I'm not saying he will not have to tear the trans apart both times this happened to me it was because of worn parts not just the shift lever ball. the teeth on one of the cluster gears and/or 1st thru rev gears mike needs to remove the shift lever and look and see if the shifting forks are in there correct position(forming the small square for the shift lever ball to fit in) for neutral I believe what happens is one of the shifting forks moves to far and gets the trans stuck between two gears . the shift lever wont move out of gear as the fork has moved to far and the shift lever ball is ether almost out of the small square between forks so the angle is bad enough it cannt get it back in to position Brian Same thing happened to my 603 last summer. The set screw on the shifter worked loose... allowing the forks to be moved too far out of position, which locked up the rear. Pull the shifter handle, rock the tractor forwards and back to relieve the pressure on the forks... reach down in the top of the trans, realign the forks back to the neutral position... reinstall the shifter, tighten the set screw... gods willing, you'll be good to go. Edited January 5, 2014 by AMC RULES 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wallfish 15,907 #14 Posted January 5, 2014 So John and Brian...what is the bet??? How about a big glass of my moonshine against one of your Rock N Rye at this years show? I'll give you a big hit of it anyway so it's not technically a bet but... I see what your saying after rereading the post 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
buckrancher 2,673 #15 Posted January 5, 2014 So John and Brian...what is the bet??? How about a big glass of my moonshine against one of your Rock N Rye at this years show? I'll give you a big hit of it anyway so it's not technically a bet but... I see what your saying after rereading the post I'll take a shot of both 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrc 724 #16 Posted January 6, 2014 hi men, took seat , fender pan and gas tank off tractor. removed dog point set screw, jam nut on set screw was tight and set screw end looked o.k. removed shifter and peered into hole with a strong flashlight. i see the problem. (i should say i have a spare unidrive to use as a reference.) front shifter square is way over to the left side of the tractor and binding on a gear. my friend and i applied tremendous pressure with pry bars, big drift pins etc. and the front shifter square remains firmly stuck.. we were trying to push it towards the right side of the tractor. what now??? i should add the hi/low range shift lever is stuck too. thanks i really appreciate your help. mike in mass. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wallfish 15,907 #17 Posted January 6, 2014 We drink Rock & Rye for a few days at the show! Sounds like it's bound up pretty good, try to turn the drive pulley backwards (clockwise) and free it up as you pry the fork over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrc 724 #18 Posted January 10, 2014 hi men, i removed the brake pulley. the shaft has "2 flats" on it. with the tractor jacked way up i was able to use an 18inch adjustable wrench on the 2 flats. meanwhile my friend was using a large drift pin thru the shift hole on the shift fork. despite a tremendous amount of force the tranny is still bound up. my plan is to pull the tranny and split the case. i see no other option. so here are my questions: whats the best way to split the case? when i split the case will anything small pop out that i should look for? now seems a good time to reinforce the tranny mount plate. is the reinforcement plate a custom thing or can i buy one somewhere? if so where? thanks mike in mass. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevasaurus 22,229 #19 Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) Here is the trans manual with step by step instructions on dropping the trans. Your trans is in Section V... http://www.mywheelhorse.com/graphics/file/Transmissions/492-4004.pdf You want the shallow side down (input shaft side) and take off the deeper side (brake shaft side)...nothing will pop out. A 5 gallon spring water create works great for holding the trans on it's side. There are a couple of threads about reinforcing the mounting plate...I think Zane Petty just did that in his thread...it is a custom thing. A 1/4" steel plate welded to the back side of the mounting plate and drilling the mounting holes will do it. Your four mounting bolts will need to be 1/4" longer. Can you post some pictures of the inside of the trans when you get it open. We may be able to help see what is wrong in there. I am starting to think that it is something to do with the spline shaft and those bearings. The fork gears slide on that shaft. Edited January 10, 2014 by stevasaurus 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrc 724 #20 Posted January 14, 2014 hi all, first off i will try to get pics of the carnage by the end of the week. i'm not good at this computer/pic thing. let me give you a brief description. one of the bolts that holds the big drum/gear together where the 8 pinions live backed out and looks like a candy cane. i can see where it must have been rubbing on another large gear because some of those teeth are shredded. also a small gear is broken too. small bits of metal through out the tranny.. due to the extensive damage. i'm thinking swap in a spare tranny that i have and get thru the winter and rebuild my original unidrive this summer or clean and save parts from it. my greatest concern is the metal bits have gone thru the bearings. maybe i can clean them enough to save??? i will try hard to post pics and i really appreciate you guys being there for me. thank you. mike in mass. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc724 924 #21 Posted January 14, 2014 Ouch! If you do decide to rebuild the tranny, make sure you use self locking nuts on the differential (that big drum gear thing). Earlier transmissions (before self locking nuts were readily available) used lock washers. They are tried and true, but over time they relax under the compressive load of the nut and then the force on the nut which keeps it tight goes away and the nut will back off. Without a pix, I am assuming this is what happened, however, it is also possible that the offending bolt broke. The offending bits may have trashed the 1533 NLA main axle bearings. I had a tranny last year where the outboard needle bearings on one axle disintegrated. One I tore it apart, I saw a few whole needles in the tranny but many broken ones and the main bearing was trashed. Get that other tranny installed quicky, I understand that cold weather is coming back to MA next week! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wallfish 15,907 #22 Posted January 14, 2014 Ouch is right, that sucks but at least you have the spare. Looks like Steve gets to keep his Rock & Rye and I'll have to still up some extra shine for the show. Good call Steve! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrc 724 #23 Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) hi men, i'm making a tranny reinforcement plate. its about 6 inches square. .250 thick. obviously i will have holes in the appropriate spots so i can bolt the tranny back on with longer bolts. there are 5 holes in my frame where the tranny bolts on.. what is the top middle hole for? i'm thinking i need to have some slots milled into the plate to go over the lateral humps so the plate sits flat? i took pics but have to figure out how to upload. if this is not the way to make the plate please inform me of a better/right way. thanks mike in mass. Edited January 15, 2014 by mrc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevasaurus 22,229 #24 Posted January 15, 2014 Mike, there are some threads of re-enforcing that plate on the site. I put a link to what Zane Petty did with his in one of the posts above in this thread. Take a look. I have no idea what that 5th hole is for you are talking about...maybe how Wheel Horse hung the frames to paint them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
312Hydro 473 #25 Posted January 15, 2014 That 5th hole should be for the lift cable tube to lift your tiller, hitch,etc. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
