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dbartlett1958

416-H Not Charging

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First of all, thanks for a great resource with this/these forums. Lots of wonderful information here.

I have read through all the old posts I could find regarding my issue, but have not yet found a solution.

My 1991 416-H does not seem to be charging the battery. I get about 12.4 volts measured at the battery whether the tractor is running or not. I would like any input as to what to check. I have checked the fuses and cleaned connections as much as possible, but no change yet.

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks, David

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David,

Stop the engine and place the ignition key in the run position. Measure DC volts at the B+ terminal of the rectifier / regulator unit.

You should read battery voltage at the B+ terminal. This step assures you have a good electrical connection between the rectifier / regulator and the battery thru the ignition switch. Battery volttage should also be present at the "B" terminal of the ignition switch and (in the run position) the "R" terminal of the ignition switch.

239059d3.gif

If you do not measure battery voltage at the B+ terminal, we will have to troubleshoot wiring to the RR unit or possible issues with the ignition switch.

If all this works out OK, measure the AC voltage between the two AC terminals on the rectifier / regulator unit.

You should measure in excess of 30 VAC with the engine running at 3/4 throttle or above. If you measure below 30 VAC, we may have an issue with the stator assy.

StatorRegoutputmeasure3.png

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SOI,

Thanks for the great diagram and instructions. I will give this a go tomorrow and come back with more information. Thakns again.

I love your posts. Very informative and easy to follow.

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Looking forward to what you find.

Its tie rod ends and evap codes on the wife's car on Saturday so I should be around all day. I'll check in to see how you're doing.

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SOI,

I have battery boltage at the B+ terminal with tractor off and key in Run position

I have 30+ VAC at the AC terminals at 3/4 throttle.

I still have only Battery voltage at battery with engine running(12.3VDC, more or less)

Hope your car projects are going well.

Thanks again. David

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David, the stator output looks good at 30 VAC.

Make certain the B+ terminal on the regulator is clean of any corrosion.

Check the contacts locked within the plug which slides onto the regulator terminals. Corroded terminals WITHIN the plug can insulate the connection between the regulator terminal to the plug's B+ contact and wiring.

As always, assure the regulator's body is well grounded to the chassis. A quick jumper wire from the regulator bolts to the battery negative terminal will make this check.

Keep us updated.

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SOI,

Thanks again for the reply. I have cleaned the contacts on the regulator. I will check the connections that slide on to them. Now that you mention it, one or more seemed a bit loose. Will clean and squeeze them a bit.

I will also try the ground wire direct from the regulator to battery. I was going to try that today but ran out of time when company showed up.

At least during the warm weather the battery stays up quite a while so the charging issue is not too much a bother, but it will be good to get things sorted out.

I'll be back. David

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Latest update:

I cleaned all connections, male & female at the regulator/rectifier.

I cleaned metal surfaces where regulator/rectifier and ductwork contact each other.

I installed a separate ground wire from rectifier to Battery.

Result: Still not charging. So I am thinking that the regulator is fried and needs to be replaced. But through the process I have learned quite a bit about the charging/electrical system on my tractor so that is a plus++++.

Thanks, David

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deathofreg.gif

Agreed on the nonfunctional regulator.

Good job troubleshooting.

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SOI,

Thank you for all your help with this issue. I have ordered a new regulator and will report back after it is installed and things are working as they should.

David

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Good thread! I had a charging issue with my newly acquired 1990 416-8. I followed "Save Old Iron" tips and found the issue to be at the 9 pin connector. It was the black wire w/ red stripe witch connected to the red wire that feeds the B terminal on the regulator.

Thanks Save Old Iron

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found the issue to be at the 9 pin connector.

keep an eye on that area thru the life of the tractor. That connector will be the source of the vast majority of electrical issues you will see thru the life of the tractor.

Glad to see you got it fixed. Good troubleshooting .

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This is a great thread for the regualtor/rectifier testing process!

Thanks SOI!

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Yesterday I installed the new regulator on my 416-H and am happy to report that all is as it should be. I now have a working charging system, putting out about 14.5 volts at 1/2 throttle and above. I left the additional ground wire in place with the new regulator as well, figuring it can only help.

Thanks again for all the help with this issue.

David

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h\Hello,

I am new to this forum but like many other forums I use, the information is invaluable. My neighbor asked me to look at his WH, he said the basttery has to be disconnected each night or the batery would be dead in the moring. I checked the current draw with the key OFF and there was a 5 mA flow. Not sure if this is normal but that is the first problem. I then checked the charging voltage, it was 12.3V which I think means it is not charging. Unfortunately the on board voltmeter is broken so he did not know this. I checked the three fuses I could find and they are OK.

According to the posts on this thread, I should check the alternator output.

Since he does not have a manual, the ID stamped on the fender is 3120OE01 10330. I do not know what the model is and where the regulator is located on the chassis.

Can someone direct me to either a diagram of component locations or some clues as to where to look to start the troubleshooting process.

Thanks so much,

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the ID stamped on the fender is 3120OE01

This would be a 1988 520H model.

The rectifier regulator (referred to as RR from here forward) is a device mounted to the cooling tins of the engine.

tnIMG_0475.jpg

Not the best picture, and the wiring is a little busy, but it does show what the RR looks like mounted in the tractor.

When removed from the tractor, inspect the 3 terminals on the device.

2ed08850.jpg

Remove the RR from the tractor and clean up all the terminals on the RR. Inspect and replace any corroded connectors joining with the RR. Make sure you have a good clean ground connection from the area where the RR attaches to the engine "skins" all the way back to the battery (-) terminal.

Reattach the RR top the engine, start thre engine and go to 3/4 throttle. Measure AC - that's AC - voltage across the two terminals marked AC on the RR. If the stator is producing sufficient voltage, you should be able to read in excess of 30VAC across the terminals. Do not reference the voltmeter to ground - place meter leads on both AC RR terminals.

If the AC voltage is good, shut off the engine and return the ignition key to the RUN position. With the voltmeter negative on the battery (-) terminal, measure the DC voltage at the B+ terminal of the RR unit. At this point, you should read battery voltage at the B+ terminal. If not, you may have a break in the wiring from the battery thru the ignition switch R terminal to the B+ terminal on the RR unit. Do not test any further if you do not have battery voltage on the B+ RR terminal.

Sooooooooo

If the stator AC voltage is > 30 with the engine at 3/4 or more throttle

and

you can measure battery voltage at the B+ RR terminal

and

you have a good ground connection from the RR case back to the battery (-) terminal

then

your RR unit is suspect.

Keep us up to date

and welcome to the forum. Very interesting 1st post !!

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almost forgot

I have no idea if the 520H has any typical parasitic drain on the battery while the tractor is shut off, but 5mA certainly would not compromise a good battery within a 24 hr period. We can troubleshoot the 5 mA by disconnecting the test light switch (its live even if the ignition switch is turned off). There may be a bunch of damp grass clippings and dirt on the switch terminals. From there, dirt and moisture within the ignition switch body could be a culprit also. Lastly, the battery (+) terminal wiring heads down to the starter solenoid area and branches off into several other power feed wires. Disconnecting those wires one at a time may help isolate the drain.

I would concentrate on the charge issue and get that resolved before tracking down a small parasitic drain. I believe I posted a method to trace parasitic drain a while back. Search for "parasitic" on the site and I'm sure it will pop up.

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Thanks so much for the reply and instructions.

I removed the RR and tested the termminals.

Between one AC and B+ I read 1.5 volts as a diode check.

The other AC terminal of the RR to B+ terminal read 0 volts. Then checked continutiy and the side that had 0 volts was a dead short. Bad RR. Checked Stator output, about 35 volts at 1/2 throttle. OK Stator. Also checked the parasitic drain. With the RR removed, no drain. Shorted RR caused drain through Stator.

Now just need to tell neighbor to purchase new RR.

Thanks again.

wings515

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After doing some searching on the web, I can not find a replacement RR. Anyone have a suggestion as to a site that carries 520H parts?

Thanks,

wings515

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Just noticed the RR is made by Onan. Same as HJohn Deere. Found many on ebay. I'll let him know.

Thanks again,

wings515

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Great info , thanks S O I. I made a copy and will troubleshoot my C-160 tomorrow. No charge showing on my voltmeter.

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With the switch in the run (engine not running), I measure 14.6 VDC.

With engine running at 3/4 throttle, I get a pulsating voltage between 4 and 20 volts on the VAC scale on my el-cheapo VOM when measuring at the AC tabs on the RR.

It,s like the frequency is too low to give me a steady reading. The VOM measures 110 VAC house voltage OK.

Any ideas SOI ? tks, Ed

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Interesting Ed, very interesting.

Reading your initial post, it might be helpful to have you describe the symptoms of your no charge problem. You stated your system appears to show no charge on the VOLTMETER. Do you mean the AMMETER? A voltmeter will indicate a charge anytime it is showing a reading higher than the battery voltage. In a properly operating system, that would be a voltage higher than 12.6 but lower than 14.6.

If you have an ammeter on your tractor, no charge would be either a 0 amp reading or a negative indication on the ammeter gauge.

The 14.6 VDC is confusing. This VDC would normally be what is expected on the B+ terminal with the battery charging normally. If this is the DC voltage at the B+ with the engine turned off, the battery may be severely overcharged. A fully charged battery will normally be around 12.6 VDC and if it has just come off a charger, maybe it will be up around 13.8 VDC from an effect called surface charge (a temporary, artificially high voltage present in lead acid cells just off a charger). To remove the effect of the surface charge, drain some current from the battery, either by turning on the headlights or trying to crank the engine for a few seconds without the spark plug cable attached. The battery voltage should settle in around 12.6 VDC very quickly.

Check your battery voltage directly across the battery terminals. If you still have a high voltage, maybe the el-cheapo is lying to us (rarely do I see even cheapo meters off by more than 0.1 volts on DC). Measure the voltage on your car battery with the same VOM. See if el-cheapo shows 12.6 engine off and 13.8 (ish) engine running on the car.

The AC output from the stator pulsing is also interesting. My first guess is your meter leads are probably not making very good contact with the AC terminals on the RR unit. Beyond corroded terminals, make certain you are measuring the AC voltage with the meter's leads measuring across the RR AC terminals - one meter lead on each RR AC terminal. Do not measure the AC on the terminals with a meter lead grounded to the chassis. This measurement should be done directly across the two AC terminals. If the terminals are corroded and hard to reach, disconnect the stator wires from the RR and use the VOM directly across the stator wiring. You should see 30 VAC or higher directly across the stator wires at 3/4 or higher engine speed. I have seen C140's and C160's with near 40 VAC at their outputs.

5b970428.gif

The steady reading you see on the meter when measuring AC wall socket voltage indicates the meter is probably just fine.

All said and done, the first condition we have to make sure exists is 30 VAC or higher across the stator output. If we don't have that, time to pull the flywheel for a visual inspection of the stator / stator wiring.

Very interesting Ed.

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hi SOI,

OK- some progress. With all 3 wires removed from the RR.

Measured steady 32VDC across the wires from stator at 3600 RPM. VDC varies directly w/RPM ,VDC and max's at 32-34 Good news-stator OK.

Measured from wire to B+ lug to ground with engine not running and switch in run position. No voltage. Bad news no continnuity (sp) thru switch to battery.

Put stator wires back on RR lugs AC.

Measured from B+ lug on RR to ground , and got only .1-.2 VDC. Checked RR resistance from heat sink to neg battery. Good ground. Bad news RR has no output. probably fried.

Will now remove gas tank to check wiring thru switch to battery.

BTW, I checked el-cheapo on new F-150 battery. 15.3 @ 0 rpm and 17.4 @ 1000 rpm. Also checked house voltage 148 VAC. VOM reading ~ 20% high. Will get new VOM ASAP.

Conclusion:

Stator OK

RR fried

Switch or wire problem from RR output to battery. Switch is a 4 posotion off , run/acc , run , start. Any diagram/advice for checking this ?

Will wait for your comments, corrections. Tks SOI,

Ed

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