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Need a Little With Charging System KT-17 series 2

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Thanks guys for any help you can give me. Earlier this year I bought a 417-A with the series 2 Kohler 17 horsepower engine. I knew when I bought it there was a problem with the charging system but figured it could not be too difficult to fix. This is now the last little buggaboo of the few initial things that needed attention.

The system is not charging the battery. Today I put the test leads of my FLUKE voltmeter on the two wires coming off the stator. Only r eading 20 volts a/c. My question is; Is there a chance there is something that can be repaired if I go ahead and remove the flywheel to access the stator, or should I assume the stator is bad and go ahead and order another one if replacement stators are available for this engine?

Again, thank you all for any assistance. I really like this WheelHorse alot and want to get it back to 100% mechanical condition.

Van

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Thank you Terry. I am reading where sometimes the magnets get loose. If that is the case with mine, what should I use to glue them back on properly?

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If the magnets came unglued, they would be stuck to the stator and there wouldn't be any output at the leads.

Once again, I would pull the flywheel and have a look.

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You should test the stator with you multimeter. Check each wire to ground (should be open no continuity with ground). then check the resistance through the two wires .1 or .2 ohms is all you should show for resistance, any significant reading and the stator is bad.

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OK, Thank you Terry. I should be able to check that with the flywheel on. After all these years of buying tools, one thing I do not have is a flywheel puller. It may be time to purchase one though. I will be going out to the garage after dinner to follow up on your recommendation.

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sometimes they come off without a harmonic puller,one can be fabbed up with a chunk of angle iron,and a few bolts

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Looks like the flywheel has to be removed. I went out to the garage tonight and was able to put my index finger around to the back side of the flywheel. I felt what I believe is one of the magnets. I was able to easily slide it back and forth from its resting place like it is magnetized there but not glued. I am assuming this is not normal, and may be why the a/c voltage is measuring 20vac.

Should this be the case and I have to glue the magnets back to a proper location, can you give me a link to click on for that procedure or can you tell me what to do, and can you advise me what is the best recommended glue for this purpose?

I did check the leads off the stator and checked each lead to ground, all good there. Then checked lead to lead with the digital ohm meter on the 0 setting and get a 7.1 ohm reading. Hmmmm, should I be concerned there?

Van

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I have glued magnets in with 5minute epoxy just.make sure.and mark the location with a paint pen or something chip out all the old epoxy and rough things up with some 80 grit sandpaper to give it some tooth

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Looks like the flywheel has to be removed. I went out to the garage tonight and was able to put my index finger around to the back side of the flywheel. I felt what I believe is one of the magnets. I was able to easily slide it back and forth from its resting place like it is magnetized there but not glued. I am assuming this is not normal, and may be why the a/c voltage is measuring 20vac.

Should this be the case and I have to glue the magnets back to a proper location, can you give me a link to click on for that procedure or can you tell me what to do, and can you advise me what is the best recommended glue for this purpose?

I did check the leads off the stator and checked each lead to ground, all good there. Then checked lead to lead with the digital ohm meter on the 0 setting and get a 7.1 ohm reading. Hmmmm, should I be concerned there?

Van

That is a bit high but could be meter error. Since you have to pull the flywheel to address the magnets i would wait and see after theh magnets were fixed if you have 28v or more ac.

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I will try to get the flywheel off early this afternoon. A friend is bringing a puller over here to help with getting the flywheel off the crankshaft. Or maybe I'll get lucky and it will slide off without using a puller. Are the magnets to be evenly spaced around the inside of the flywheel? That makes sense to me. Also too I will check the wiring connections at the stator for dirty or loose connections, also any hot spots. Thank you all for your help with this. I will let you know how things go with it this afternoon. In the meantime if you have an answer to my above question about spacing the magnets please let me know and i will make some notes to take with me out to the garage.

YOU GUYS ARE GREAT!!!

Van

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as far as the magnet spacing, i would just make sure they go back the same as previously, you should be able to see where they were.

some reading on polarity and positioning them, might be of help before you glue them back.

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Thank you Martin for the very important tip. I was able to remove the flywheel quickly, the puller worked just fine. I discovered three loose magnets. One was broken in two pieces but both pieces were on the stator. I hope it will be fine to bond the broken one back to the flywheel. I am in the process now of cleaning up the stator and flywheel. I will be checking in later in case you have a word of wisdom for me. Also, please let me know if anyone thinks installing the broken magnet is a bad idea. I know its a long shot but if anyone has an extra magnet laying around they would be willing to sell, please let me know. Also thank you SOI for all your help with electrical matters on this forum. You have helped alot of people here.

Van

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im not sure if putting that magnet back together and gluing in would be ok or not. ive only got one engine with this type charging system and i remember that the polarity thing is important. whether that is lost when the magnet breaks or not, i dont know. i would think that it would be affected somewhat.

the rest of my engines are starter generator charging and dont have the magnet/flywheel/stator setup.

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Van, the broken magnet will work fine. As Martin stated, there is an effect, the magnetic fields are slighty supressed but will not be noticed in this application.

As far as the 7 ohms, that is really odd. Make sure your stator is an 18 sector stator. If someone stuffed a dual output stator (with a single diode rectifier in series with the leads) you may read high ohms from the forward resistance of the diode. I just went thru this same issue with a neighbor's C125. No charging was his compalint. A quick resistence check of the stator wires showed a 10 ohm reading on an analog ohmmeter.

Take a look at the stator - you should be able to count 18 sectors - all wound with heavy gauge wires. If you see two separate sections of windings, someone may have stuffed a 3 amp stator in the engine.

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Van, the broken magnet will work fine. As Martin stated, there is an effect, the magnetic fields are slighty supressed but will not be noticed in this application.

As far as the 7 ohms, that is really odd. Make sure your stator is an 18 sector stator. If someone stuffed a dual output stator (with a single diode rectifier in series with the leads) you may read high ohms from the forward resistance of the diode. I just went thru this same issue with a neighbor's C125. No charging was his compalint. A quick resistence check of the stator wires showed a 10 ohm reading on an analog ohmmeter.

Take a look at the stator - you should be able to count 18 sectors - all wound with heavy gauge wires. If you see two separate sections of windings, someone may have stuffed a 3 amp stator in the engine.

Martin, Thank you for hanging wiith me on this. I guess theres alot of good to be said about those old outboard belt driven starter/genetators.

SOI, thank you for jumping in here. I was hoping you would. I have counted the sectors, and yes there is 18. And yes to the heavy guage wires. I checked this early, and I know for sure it is 18 sectors. I checked the resistance again right before coming in to write this, and what I am reading now is 4.1 ohms. When I pulled the flywheel off, one of the magnets was magnetized to a few of the sectors of the stator, so I wanted to check it ithout the magnet attached. Now I have a different reading. I brought my meter in to replace the batteries tonight. Tomorrow I will check it with new batteries. Sometimes I wish I had an old Simpson 260............

I now have 4 detached magnets. Found another one during the initial cleanup stage. I have cleaned the flywheel and all four magnets. Tomorrow I will get some JB Weld to re-bond the magnets back onto the flywheel.

I now have the magnets resting in what I believe is their proper orientation in the flywheel. Tonight I will study more on this to make sure I have it right before JB Welding them in place.

Thank you everyone for your time and efforts to help me with this problem. We are having a NC Meet and Greet this coming Saturday ( check it out on RedSquare ) and I would like to take the 417-A if possible. Fortunately the 312-8 is clean and running good. No last minute things are needed with it. You all are invited to attend if you can make it. .

Van

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OK guys, I have the flywheel and magnets cleaned and ready to be mounted. I just want to make sure one more time I have the magnets in the correct order before glueing them in place. So when the magnets are laying in position inside the flywheel, am I correct in assuming any particular magnet will repel away from the magnets on either side of it if I try to lay said magnet inside the ones next to it on either side? And should same said magnet be attracted to every other magnet if laid inside every other magnet all the way around? And it would then of course be this way with every magnet, no matter which one you choose? This is what makes sense to me. I have looked at the diagrams sent to me in a link earlier, and I think this is the way it is suppose to work.

Van

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So when the magnets are laying in position inside the flywheel, am I correct in assuming any particular magnet will repel away from the magnets on either side of it

Just the opposite of what you said. Like poles will repel and we want a transisition between poles from magnet to magnet. So neighboring magnets will be ATTRACTED to each other - not repelled.

Smear on a THIN coating of JB weld - place the magnet anywhere on the flywheel area and use a woodworking clamp or spring clamp to hold the magnet in place. Be careful as the magnets will tend to want to migrate toward each other when on a slippery bed of JB weld. Find the correct neighbor for the glued up magnet. THIN coat JB weld and clamp it to the flywheel. Maintain correct spacing between the magnet segments as this will contribute to the overall balance of the flywheel. The cracked magnet does not need to be glued together. Each 1/2 segment can be individually glued to the flywheel but butted closely together (these two segments will want to repel each other also. Keep them butted together !!)

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I think I've got it now SOI. I found my magnetic fastner extractor to use as you showed on one of the diagrams, and that gave me what I need to move forward. Sorry too as I may have confused you with my last post. I was not speaking of magnets laying end to end repeling each other. What I meant was laying the normally JB Welded side of a magnet to the inside of another magnet. This was before I found my magnetic extractor, Not having the magnetic device made me have to take another route to figure out which magnets were NSN and which were SNS. Thanks to you and the other fellows here I think I have it under control now. I think being left handed tends to make me overthink some things in the beginning that I don't quite understand.

I will report back on this as soon as everything is bolted back up and running. I will get the magnets bonded to the flywheel tonight after I get home from work. Thank you everybody for being so kind and helpful to me, and thank you SOI for your patience with me.

Van

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OK, magnets are in place and curing. It will be Wednesday before I can get back to it. Everything on the 417 is ready to accept the flywheel when I can bolt it on. Nothing else to do to now but wait.

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van, thats awesome you got it worked out.

just love it when a plan comes together.... :thumbs:

it was a lesson for me as well........

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What I meant was laying the normally JB Welded side of a magnet to the inside of another magnet.

Interesting method. I never tried to separate out the pairs in that fashion. I have a few magnets laying around ... I'll try it.

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good to hear you got her sorted,just a question to ponder,did you remove the remaining magnets,if 4 let go then it wont be long before the other 2 let go,and now would be the best time to do it when going this far

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CW, you got me on that one. I will have to admit I did not do a thing about the other two magnets. If the charging system is working as it should once its put back together, my plan is to remove the flywheel after 30 days for at least the next three months to inspect the magnets. This one is my learning curve. If there ever is a next time, I will do it a bit differently, as it should be. I will certainly improve on my method of operation. I am sitting here now with one eye on the computor and the other eye on the flywheel. I was unable to bolt the wheel back on tonight but that is top priority for after work tomorrow. I will probably be dreaming about it tonight :sleeping-blue:

Van

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UPDATE APRIL 25

OK, got the flywheel installed. A/C voltage now is averageing 31.4VAC at about 1/2 throttle. And about 37.1 VAC at full throttle. Still not getting any DC Voltage. All connecions are clean. Regulator and the engine mounting surface are clean.

I tested for DC Voltage straight off the center B+ terminal on the regulator, and am not getting any voltage reading.

This is leading me to believe the regulator is no good. What do you electrical Guru Guys think?

Regulator part number is KOHLER 41 403 05A

Should I need to replace the regulator, please recommend a place or vendor here to buy one from please.

Thank you,

Van

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