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Raider 10 wont start

39 posts in this topic

ID: 1   Posted

I have either a 1969 or 1970 raider 10. It does not want to start. The starter was not turning over at all, and i thought it was the ignition switch. I bought a brand new 1 for $59 That didnt fix the problem. I had the starter tested and its good. So i put it back together and now the starter works. So i wasted $59 on the ignition. But it still wont fire the engine.

I took the spark plug out and grounded it, and i am not getting spark. I am not sure where to go from here.

I also noticed that the voltage regulator under the steering shaft has no power when i tested it with my test light.

Is this because the engine is not running?

I am not real familar with tractors, infact i dont know much of anything, so any help would be appreciated, and if you could dumb it down for me i would be greatful! :dunno:

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ID: 2   Posted

Assuming you have the original engine on your tractor.

The new one could be the wrong type of switch. You need a switch that was made for a battery ignition and not a Magnito type. Try the old switch.

And yes, the engine needs to be running to see voltage at the regulator. AC voltage coming from the engine wires and DC voltage on the wire going to the battery.

Not to make you feel any worse but the 3rd switch down on this page is the type you need and a little cheaper.

http://www.psep.biz/store/toro_mower_electrical_parts.htm

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ID: 3   Posted

heres the wiring diagram from the raider 10 manual. im not familiar with this model but every wiring diagram i look at for 10 and 12 shows magneto ignition. is this right?

raider10wiring-1.jpg

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ID: 4   Posted

OOOPS I thought we were talking about a battery ign system on a K. Could be a new battery type switch and he needs a Magnito type.

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ID: 5   Posted

never messed with the magneto engines. so is the diagnosis the same.

ie. check power to coil, spark at point gap(or trigger getting power) then spark at plug etc, etc....

wallfish, good point about the ignition switch. maybe put the old one back in first, or at least check to make sure its the right one. then i guess its just a simple hunt and find.

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ID: 6   Posted

Thank you guys for your help.

As far as the switch goes, i bought the exact same switch as the one i took off, thats why it cost so much. It is not the switch you guys have pictured.

I have no idea if the its a magneto ignition. There are 2 wires going into the block by the flywheel.

The tractor ran before. So now im trying to figure out what happend.

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ID: 7   Posted

i guess we first need to work out what engine is on this thing. magneto or battery(points) ignition etc that would be a good starting point. otherwise were all just guessing. from the manual i seen mention of a HH100 engine in the 10.

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ID: 8   Posted

The 1968 Raider 9 and 1969 & 1970 Raider 10 models all had the HH-100 Tecumseh engine with solid-state (breakerless) ignition.

Before anything can accurately progress, we need a positive ID of the tractor "hemidarts" is working on, and the p/n of the replacement ignition switch would be a huge help too.

Solid-state ignition components for these engines are very pricey (if & when you find them) and one wiring "boo-boo" can cost close to the value of the entire tractor!

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ID: 9   Posted

The switch i bought is the toro 8362.

As far as i know it has a Tecumseh engine.

That is pretty much all i know.

The model # of my tractor is 1-6041 the serial is 545535

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ID: 10   Posted

Definitely a 1969 Raider 10 and definitely the correct ignition switch.

Should look a lot like this one:

Raider101969.jpg

Are all of the wires connected to the new switch exactly as they were on the old switch? (this is critical)

Was the battery disconnected when you changed the switch?

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ID: 11   Posted

Yes it looks exactly like the tractor in the picture.

Yes i put the wires back exactly like they were before.

No the battery was hooked up the whole time. It never sparked or anything.

A few weeks ago I was adjusting the wires on the ignition switch.

I touched the starter wire and the starter cable together. It sparked a couple times.

Thats why i went and got the new ignition switch. But i dont think the switch is the problem.

It would not fire the engine with the old switch. It would crank and crank, but wouldnt fire.

That is what its doing now. I am going to try patching the magneto wire going from ignition switch to the block.

It had ripped last year, and i temporarily fixed it, but i think that is the problem, what do you guys think?

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ID: 12   Posted

here are some pictures of it from a couple years ago.

182.jpg

181.jpg

177.jpg

176.jpg

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ID: 13   Posted

No the battery was hooked up the whole time. It never sparked or anything.

well you broke the first golden rule right there......

when disconnecting ignition switch wires theres too much risk of shorting a 'live' somewhere...

disconnecting the battery would be the first thing i would have done before replacing the switch.

A few weeks ago I was adjusting the wires on the ignition switch.

I touched the starter wire and the starter cable together. It sparked a couple times.

Thats why i went and got the new ignition switch. But i dont think the switch is the problem.

It would not fire the engine with the old switch. It would crank and crank, but wouldnt fire.

That is what its doing now. I am going to try patching the magneto wire going from ignition switch to the block.

It had ripped last year, and i temporarily fixed it, but i think that is the problem, what do you guys think?

i would make sure that all the wiring that you have access to is in good condition first. rule out all the simple "free" stuff first before spending another cent. by what terry said about the ignition in this thing, there is no way in the world i would ever attempt to mess with anything ignition related without first disconnecting the battery.

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ID: 14   Posted

Well i repaired the 1 wire today. It is now getting power. The tractor still does not have spark, and just cranks and cranks.

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ID: 15   Posted

I hope you mean there's now power at the rectifier/regulator "B+" terminal and not the magneto ground wire.

If you didn't already fry the coil by putting power to the "kill" wire, try disconnecting the plug at the engine harness, (by the starter) turn it over, and see if you get spark.

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ID: 16   Posted

Terry i am not exactly sure what you are talking about. I dont know what plug you are talking about. I have taken pictures of what i have. I also decided to buy a new sparkplug, and i have spark now. Not alot, but there is spark. But then engine still does not act like there is spark.

IMAG0576.jpg

IMAG0575.jpg

IMAG0574.jpg

IMAG0573.jpg

IMAG0572.jpg

IMAG0571.jpg

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ID: 17   Posted

Well i have tried to poor fuel directly into the head. I took the spark plug out and put fuel in there and put the plug back in. It just cranks and cranks. I have spark, and i know i have fuel, but its not igniting. It is not even back fireing or anything. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks for everyones help!

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ID: 18   Posted

As for spark and crossing wires...be very careful.

That engine has a Magneto, off of the magneto is the kill wire Terry was talking about.

The way that engine shuts down is by grounding out that Kill wire, causing the engine to lose spark.

If you put power to that wire, you will destroy the magneto!....instantly!!

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ID: 19   Posted

I thank you guys for the warnings. I hope i did not hurt my magneto.

I did not cross any wires, the wires i fixed, all i did was just repair the wire. i did not change anything, or start splicing wires together.

If i fried the magneto, would the engine still have spark? Correct if im wrong, but having the spark, does that mean the magneto is working?

Can anyone help me with figureing out my wireing? I posted the pictures because i dont understand what wires Terry is talking about.

When i said the wire now has power, i meant that the wire was broken, and i patched it, and now it has power, not that i hooked another wire to it.

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ID: 20   Posted

Just to rule it out, follow the black wire from the ignition switch all the way to the engine. Make sure there isn't any bad spots in the insulation where it could be shorting (or even making partial contact) against any metal.

It might even be wise to have a look under the blower housing to verify that the coil, kill wire, and spark plug wire are visibly alright and that a rodent hasn't been in there chewing or living. :hide:

When the SSI is working correctly on these engines, you should see a strong blue-colored spark at the plug. If you can get your eyes (or hands) on a Tecumseh "8 to 18 hp Cast Iron 4-Cycle Engines" manual (Tecumseh p/n 691462A) it might help you in the diagnostics.

Does the engine seem to be turning over without much resistance when you try to start it? The HH-100 has a reputation for warped cylinder heads & blown headgaskets. Was it running OK prior to the starter issue?

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ID: 21   Posted

If you can get your eyes (or hands) on a Tecumseh "8 to 18 hp Cast Iron 4-Cycle Engines" manual (Tecumseh p/n 691462A) it might help you in the diagnostics.

Terry, is this manual the one that Trouty56 uploaded to the Documents section a few days ago? It's listed there as "Tecumseh Technician's Handbook", with a red cover. I don't see a p/n on that one, but it does cover the HH100.

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ID: 22   Posted

Aye! That be the one. :thumbs2:

Shortcut:

:thanks: Ed!

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ID: 23   Posted

Thanks guys for the help! The tractor was running about a month ago. I have been working on it since. I got it fired up and running about a month ago. i drove it around the block, and waved to all of my neighbors! :icecream:

I realized that the accessory plug was touching the starter cable on the ignition switch. So i proceeded to undo the starter hot cable and the power hot cable on the ignition switch.

While i was doing this, i accidentally touched the starter hot wire and the power hot wire together. It sparked a couple of times. i had the battery hooked up.

That is why i thought i had a bad ignition switch. But my ignition switch was fine. The starter was also fine, it gets a dead spot every now and then. I tap it a couple times, and its fine.

So I am not sure what happend. But after this, all i have done is try to track down the problem. I was going around in circles trying to fix multiple problems, that actaully never existed.

It ran good before i arcked the starter hot wire and the battery hot wire. That is the only thing i can think of that would have hurt anything.

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ID: 24   Posted

IIf i fried the magneto, would the engine still have spark? Correct if im wrong, but having the spark, does that mean the magneto is working?

You are correct.....pobably, lol.

Almost all of the time, they either work, or don't! If you have spark, that is not the problem.

However.......I have come across 2 in the last 20 years....one on a briggs, one on a Tec....that after chasing everything I changed the mag and fixed the problem. The nags I had tested and they said they had an internal short...Like I said that was 2, in 20 years!

I don't know if anyone has said this yet...did you check the flywheel to see if you possibly sheered the key? If the Flywheel has moved, it will be out of time.

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ID: 25   Posted

I have not torn into the engine yet. I have not had alot of time to mess with it. And its cold and now the snow has fallen lol.

If my magneto is bad, how much are we talking to get a different one or have this 1 rebuilt? Are there any deals on them?

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