the use of modern oils in old engines

[305 380]

i did a search and found nothing

as the title says , has the reduced levels of zddp in modern oils been a problem with older small garden tractor type engines with flat tappet cams/lifters? it has been a real problem with the type of engines used in one of my passions...hot rods...with camshafts going flat and rapid lifter wear. or maybe with the low spring pressures i assume these engines have it's not a problem

not that i have experienced myself , i have been using a zddp additive in everything. including my wheel horses , vintage motorcycle , push mower , snow blower and my hot rods. however, i have seen it in others cars that did not take any precautions

am i just being paranoid with these small engines?

[hm12460 53]

I believe it could be a concern under certain circumstances. I switched all my single cylinder cast iron Kohler's to a HDEO long ago. Mobil Delvac 1300 (15W-40) and Shell Rotella T-5 (10w-30) are 2 pretty good choices. IIRC, they both have about 1200 ppm of zddp compared to 800 ppm in conventional automotive engine oil. API SM/SN. I would not use a non synthetic passenger car oil in a single cylinder Kohler. Along with the lowered zddp levels, they are also a lot less shear stable. You might be okay in winter weather up north though, say under 30 degrees F. With that said, I'm sure there will be all kinds of posters stating they use left over car oil in there lawn mowers and have been doing so for years with no ill effects. That don't make it right. I'm concerned about the parts availability for our beloved "k" series in the years ahead and we all need to take good care of what we have.

[DrabHorse 1]

I have also been using diesel oil (HDEO - heavy duty engine oil) in my small engines for alittle while now. Not only should they be better with the higher zddp content, but they are also a relative bargain compared to other oils, and if you buy it while on sale or with a rebate, even better. I'm using 15w-40 in the Kohler singles, and T5 10w-30 in the Onan 20hp.

[WH nut 553]

I have run 10w40 in mine for years and have never had a problem

[Electro12WH 50]

I use Rotella 30W.

[Giles 2]

I am a retired mechanic and I have done extensive research on this subject. This doesn't make me an expert but somewhat qualifies me to give an opinion.

The reduction of ZDDP in modern oils, started a few years ago and it will--if not already--be completely eliminated. Diesel designated oils were the last to be reduced and that is what I currently use in all my flat tappetm engines.

No oil that I have checked gives the amount of zink in their product.

There are MANY opinions about ZDDP and some will disagree with my assumption------The vast majority of hot rodders use Chevy engines and most of them know that Chevyrolet has had a "camshaft problem" since the introduction of the 265 V8 in 1955.

Chevy is the only engine that I have encountered MANY worn out camshafts and tappets in my 50 years as a mechanic.

I am not saying that they are the only engines that are affected, just that they are more suceptible and there are so many of them still being used today.

Just my 2 cents.

[hm12460 53]

Mobil 1 and Shell both list there levels of zddp on their websites/msds.

[Giles 2]

Mobil 1 and Shell both list there levels of zddp on their websites/msds.

In your opinion----What level is acceptable for older engines?

[8993-520 0]

Try using an oil that is made for the hotter running air cooled engines. Automotive oils of any kind is not made to handle the kind of heat a air cooled engines create( 300 to 350 degrees F ). Been using Kohler 30 and 10-30 for yaers with no problems what so ever. I mow several larg properties with my old wheelhorses si they see a lot of hot long run times. Hope this helps.

[Audioshot 2]

Shell Rotella 15W40 diesel oil is a very stout engine lube. I use it in my 310-8 with the Kohler M10. Today's modern motor oils are far superior to the products of even ten years ago. EPA regulations that engine manufacturers have to meet today are quite strict. Engine oils have to perform in much, much tighter tolerances at higher bearing heat. Yes, the ZDDP has been reduced, and next year it will be reduced even further (including diesel).

[8993-520 0]

Shell rotella has caused me much heartache,trouble and money with my diesels I have. I would not recommed this product to anyone.

[305 380]

thanks for all your input

i too didn't like the use of diesel oil , so i have been using HD30 with a zddp additive in the tecumseh engines in my wheel horses. the additive i had been using was ZDDP Plus , but now have purchased an additive made by Edelbrock and will be using that. part # 1074

there are some oils that still have high levels of zddp....Valvoline racing oil and Brad Penn oil are two of them

as i said , i knew that it had been a problem with auto engines , i just didn't know if i should be concerned with smaller engines. apparently i should

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/E...26&keyword=1074

[hm12460 53]

Giles, today's modern (API SM or SN) have about 800 ppm of zddp. Most quality diesel oils run around 1000-1200 ppm. I like to use an oil with at least 1000 ppm. Some of the "high mileage" oils run higher amounts of zddp also. If you do use a standard issue passenger car engine oil and change it religiously as per Kohler's recommendation you would probably be okay. A heavy duty mono grade oil, 30W, would also serve you well in summer weather.

[8993-520 0]

Like I said modern car or truck oils cannot handle the heat of an air cooled engine. And rotella is a junk oil at best. I have spent many hundreds of dollars fixing what it messed up. Air cooled engines run at 325 to 350 degrees f. And the other oils are made to handle heat around 200 to 250. So no matter how much zddp is in the oil it will varnish up and sieze an engine. Built to old kohlers because of it.

[smoreau 658]

I think we are drawing way to much into this for small engines. first of all the ZDDP is for the camshafts with solid lifters on performer engines with higher valve spring pressures. back in the 60's we had a need for this with the mussel cars. So if you plan on running automotive valve springs in your kohler, onen, briggs. then I can see the need for the higher ZDDP. As for a good oil for your small engine. Use a good quality heavy duty oil with the correct grade you for the time of year you are running it. make sure it's good for the higher temps. that a small engine will produce. and you should be fine. As for oil not being able to handle 350+ degrees, most will!! over 400 degrees, most won't the hotter it gets the thinner. and if you don't believe me, take a temp gun and check the temp of the exhaust ports of your car or truck inside of the valve cover after a long drive. If you don't change your oil when it needs it you will be asking for trouble. My personal favorite is Rotella T1 straight grade sae 30. As for it being junk, I don't think so! Rotella is a proven LEADER in the diesel world with big trucks going over a million miles using there product every day and is the MOST popular big truck oil on the market! But back to the little kohlers, just a good quality heavy duty strait grade 30 wt. oil is all you need. there isn't enough pressure on the valve springs to need the zinc in the oil for the ware problems in high performance car engines. I am a master mechanic in the automotive field, And some of my friends in my field and the big truck field had this pow wow about this a few months ago and the info that was found from many online sites, found for small engines is above. Older mussel cars need the zinc! small engine DON'T!! Just my 2 cents.

If you want to blame something like oil for your problem then be able to back it up with the best information you can find. most of the time there is a failure, it's due to lack of maintenance!! and that's a FACT!

[8993-520 0]

As for zddp in oil, I was r4efering to eariler posts and not for myself. And rotella well I know of several small and very larg trucking companies that have gone away from this so called "LEADER" in motor oil. And I am very meticulous in my maintenance as I work in that field for 15 plus years now and see what no or little maintenance does to equipment. I use to run rotella and it cost ma an engine in a 97 powerstroke and a 99. The 99 a friend said to have the oil analyzed and see what was going on. Well I sent the results to shell and they paid for a factory replacement diesel with no questions. Oh and I chang my oil every 5000 miles well under recomended intervals from ford international and shell which are 7500 to 8000 miles. And for my kohlers i only run kohler 30 in them. The shell cost me a 10 and 14 hp. And yes I only change my oil about 3 times a year or about every 15 hours. And yes I did check the oils in the kohlers with a sample to the chemist and it was the same as in the powerstroke( THE OIL FOAMED AND ALSO BROKE DOWN BEFORE THE CHANGE INTERVAL ). Foaming causes the oil to stay in the upper part of the engine and not run back down to the crankcase and starve the engine of oil.

Oh amd the temp of the exaust port is not the actual temp of the oil. The only way to check the temp of the oil is to check the temp of the oil. Yes the engine raises the temp with the combustion proses but water cooled engines are very effective in removing heat down to the operating temp the manufacture likes for that engine.

Well that is my facts from my mouth and head just like anyone elses. I did not post my reply to step on anyones toes nor talk in depth or put down a particular product. But if one of you buy or owne something and it gives you a problem do you not post so all can avoid the same problems. Just as what I have had problems with and trying to save a fellow W/H owner from the problems and expences I went through.

I have actual wear date sheets from several gear boxes and(small engines) and should you so we see first hand what oils do and dont do what they say they should. And belive it or not the old kohler 30 wt oil is about as good as it gets in a mineral based oil. And for you who owne powerstrokes motorcraft powerstroke 15/40 is a very good oil and with walmart among the cheapiest to buy. Thanks for your input and as I said not trying to step on toes.

[SAM58 30]

Just a thought....

We have had a 1972 Raider 12 w/ Kohler original engine, still is, bought new.

Used Havoline 10W-40 nothing else for 39 years. :woohoo:

[Electro12WH 50]

And rotella well I know of several small and very larg trucking companies that have gone away from this so called "LEADER" in motor oil.

May I ask what oil they switched to???

[SNYFIX 12]

Kohlers 10w-30 oil is supposed to have the zinc in it for the overhead valves. It is an additive that was taken OUT of car/truck motor oil. We put it in our 318 powered Dodge shop truck and it quieted the hydralic valve lifters right down. (No more tick-tick on startup).

Not sure if Kohlers 30 weight oil has the zinc in it or not.

[SNYFIX 12]

A above post talked about them using 10w-40 oil. We has a B&S Engine school and they told us NOT to use 10w-40 oil whatsoever due to the additives that was used to make 10w-30 oil into 10w-40 oil. It's all in the additives.

[Rooster 191]

We race all types of small engines, flat head singles to V-twins. We run them with higher spring pressures and spin them from 5k to up wards of 10K RPM.

We use Royal Purple, have only had one oil related failure and that was when I let gasoline get into the oil. (float stuck while transporting!)

Yes this is expensive oil! But for the small quantity used to protect sometimes almost priceless engines...it is a small investment! A good synthetic extends engine life greatly. It has also been proven to produce more power!

[Giles 2]

How many of you have personally experienced problems associated with the reduction of ZDDP?

What was the problem and what was the engine brand?

I believe some engines are more prone to problems then others.

[305 380]

as i said in my original post , i have not experienced any problems with my own cars or small engines because i was aware of it early and took action to prevent . i have been using a zinc additive since i first became aware of it

BUT......i personally know of 4 cars that recently had cam/lifter failure , all with small block chevy 350s in a hot rod, two of the cars i built for other people. even after repeated warnings to the owners about zinc , neither took any action. so i know the problem is real

here is one on the motors that had cam/lifter failure due to lack of zinc. i had the motor part about 5,000 miles ago and installed a new Comp Cams camshaft. it was broken in properly

my original question was should we be concerned with small engines too. i guess the jury is still out on that , in the meantime i will continue using a zinc additive

another question: a lot of the small engines we used were built when all gasoline was leaded , with no-lead being the only thing available now has anyone experienced valve problems due to lack of lead? i have also been using a lead additive in my Wheel Horses , or maybe i'm over thinking things

[8993-520 0]

I dont belive zink is the real problem. Most companies taht did away with zink just replaced it with another additive to reduce friction. Mobile1 uses magnesiun instead. I still go back to the heat as the real problem in small engines. A no small engine should run a muliti weight oil unless you live in a very extreme climate, just dont need it.

Tha companies I know of have went to Hydrotex a company in Conover NC and the pther is Mobile1 Delvac which I also have ran in my diesel trucks but it is a real expensive oil.

I too have ran Royal Purple oil in 70 chevelle big block. Changed all fluids to it and gained 6 hp at the real wheels. But way to much money for me. to run in a small engine.

As for synthetic oil haveing more wear protection is up in the air for me. I have found reduced friction is not the same as wear protection. And I have owned and seen several cars,trucks and small engines go extreme amount of miles on mineral based oils. I have a 7.3 with 348.000 and a friend has one with 660.000. All with mineral oil. I have a 72 wheelhorse my grandfather bought new and it has never had synthetic oil in it. And I worked for a landscaping company that used 520's and they would go 3,500 to 4,000 hours on Kohler 30 weight oil. So cant say synthstic oil is any better. Not saying it isn't either.

[Giles 2]

as i said in my original post , i have not experienced any problems with my own cars or small engines because i was aware of it early and took action to prevent . i have been using a zinc additive since i first became aware of it

BUT......i personally know of 4 cars that recently had cam/lifter failure , all with small block chevy 350s in a hot rod, two of the cars i built for other people. even after repeated warnings to the owners about zinc , neither took any action. so i know the problem is real

here is one on the motors that had cam/lifter failure due to lack of zinc. i had the motor part about 5,000 miles ago and installed a new Comp Cams camshaft. it was broken in properly

my original question was should we be concerned with small engines too. i guess the jury is still out on that , in the meantime i will continue using a zinc additive

another question: a lot of the small engines we used were built when all gasoline was leaded , with no-lead being the only thing available now has anyone experienced valve problems due to lack of lead? i have also been using a lead additive in my Wheel Horses , or maybe i'm over thinking things

Chevy is the only engine that I have dealt with concerning flat tappet wear. I have replaced MANY camshafts in my mechanic days one MG, three Toyota 22R. Four Buicks and at least 100 Chevys.

Chevy has had problems with "camshaft wear" since the introduction of the 265ci in 1955. The latest model Chevy camshaft replacement was in a 1993 Impala.

I am just thinking it showed up more with Chevy then any other engine----But, of course, there are a lot of Chevy engines.