Raider 10 starter circuit question + a couple more

[Horse'n Around 22]

Howdy all,

Im starting to rewire my Raider and Ive been studying the wiring diagram for it thats in the manual and everything is straight forward and obvious to me except for one thing that has me confused. Keep in mind that this has the Tecumseh in it and not the Kohler, I dont know how much of a difference ithat makse but I imagine it does.....Anyway the wiring diagram has a black wire running from the "S" terminal on the ignition-start switch directly to the starter itself. There is no solenoid shown anywhere. Wouldnt it require a fairly heavy guage wire to supply the power to the starter,something like a battery cable? The S terminal on the switch has a small screw that the wire attaches to which leads me to believe that a much lighter guage wire is to be used but I just dont see how it could work and not fry the wire right away the first time I crank the starter over. I am planning to use 12ga wire on the rest of the harness.Unfortuneately the diagram does not list what guage wire is rewuired for each. It looks like 12 ga is used on the remaining origional wiring,but there is some wiring missing. In fact there is no rectifier present. I have a complete running HH120 that came on a Craftsman origionally along with the rectifier that came with it. The plug connection on the engine thats in the tractor has 3 poles... 2 side by side with one centered above them.... the one off the Craftsman has 3 poles also but its connection has all 3 in a row rather than staggered. I was thinking that I might use the electrical system from that engine since it matches the rectifier . The bolt holes on the rectifier match the 2 holes in the tower forward of the shifter so I assume thats where it is ment to go.I wish the wiring was intact so I could see what it is supposed to look like in the tractor,even if it was shot and needed to be rewired at least I would be able to see what goes where and what guage to use.

If anyone could shed some light on my dilemma and possibly post some pictures of what the wiring should look like I would really appreciate it. I have been pondering this for a couple of days trying to figure it out without having to ask for help, but no matter how much I researched and thought about it, I couldnt figure it out. DOes this ignition system require a battery to run? The starter switch has a M for Magneto so that leads me to believe that the battery is only needed for the starter,lights and cigarette lighter.

Ok so much for my "question + a couple of others"... Im sorry, Im very sad to say that my knowlege of wiring and electrical systems sadly is limited at this point but I amd trying to remidy that problem by reading and do my best to understand and absorb all the posts in the electrical section. Little by little Im learning thanks to everyone here.

Thanks,

John

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

John,

your thought process is very logical and you are correct on your concerns.

First off, the gauge of wire you use will be dictated by the amount of current you expect to flow thru the wire.

Here is what I use

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...RK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

14 awg will easily handle up to 15 amps of current. The supplier I list does a very unique service to his buyers, he sells wire by the color and by the foot.

So for a total of $17 plus shipping, you can order a total of 100 feet of wire - any length in any color available.

You can order 20 feet yellow and 10 feet brown and 30 feet green , etc until you reach 100 feet. The wire is ultra high quality marine wire - copper wire tinned with solder so as not to corroded under the insulation. Great stuff from a great supplier.

I don't have any tractors with the high current contacts to the back of the ignition switch and if I did, they would be changed and updated for the sake of reliability and use of lower cost components. The first time I saw one I said "what the heck. why would anyone want to do that?" But they exist.

The good news is the system can be easily update / upgraded to solenoid based starter circuitry.

I would be happy to help you thru that conversion if needed.

I have very limited Techky experience but the principles of the charger system is the same as the Kohlers. The ignition systems can be completely different. Someone else will need to chime in about the solenoid / no solenoid correctness on the Raider 10. My Raider 12 has the Kohler engine and is solenoid based. As long as your not dealing with an SG based engine, the solenoid wiring / function will be the same.

A few pics of the engine / starter switch backside may get us off to a good start.

[racinfool40 202]

I wish I could help more but there is suppose to be a rectifier bolted behind the dash tower. If my memory is correct a 3 amp style. I had to switch my rectifier and key switch when I switched mine to a 12hp kohler.as for the starter wire mine was also burn't when I received it I think I replaced mine with 12 guage but it's been a year or longer since I did this hopefully others with a little more knowldge will chime in.If you have the connections for the hh120 rectifier you may be able to splice them in and use that rectifier. I wish i could remember more or you were closer!!!!

[racinfool40 202]

Also just seen raider's post in the implement section he also has a raider powered hh100. He might be able to get some pics also might shoot him a PM and see...MIKE!!!!

[Horse'n Around 22]

Thanks for all your help with this. Im going to take your advise and modify the system to use a solnoid.I like to keep things origional but not at the expense of safety,reliability and piece of mind. im starting to gather the needed parts to rewire it and use the solnoid. Chuck, thank you for the ebay link to the seller that sells the wire, Im going to place an order this coming week, I can find some of the wire I need locally but Im not sure of the quality and also I know it sounds rather silly,especially seeing as Im going to modify the wiring for the solnoid ....but I want to stick with the colors shown in the manual and I am having a devil of a time finding orange wire in 12.....plus I like the color orange . On a side note, I snagged the carburator off a different engine and got the engine started this afternoon. It started almost immedietly and ran great with no smoke, noise or any other unpleasant surprises.I need to put a kit in the carburator but after sitting for about 5 years that is to be expected.

When I was working on it I noticed that the shaft that the transmission pulley mounts on has excessive up and down play in it, so after I get the engine and wiring done Im going to split the cases and replace the bearings, in the manual it shows a set of needle bearings and install the needed bearings. The manual shows a set of needle bearings and farther in a set of roller bearings ,(hopefully the shaft isnt damaged, I dont think it is but I learned a long time ago to be prepared for the worst case senario that was I wont be shocked)and while Im at it I will replace all the seals. I know it sounds a bit demented but im actually looking forward to getting inside of the transaxle and repairing it. Before I broke my back racing,I used to split the cases on all my MX race bikes for maintenance and trans repairs so this shouldnt be too much different. IS a gasket required between the two case halfs or do you use some sort of sealer? Some of my bikes used no center gasket and I used Yamabond. (which comes in a squeeze tube like toothpaste) for that application, the stuff is amazing !!!

Thank you again for all your help with this guys!

John

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

This will get you the 12 awg in larger quantity,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/12-AWG-Mari...essoriesQ5fGear

:)

[pfrederi 17,128]

IS a gasket required between the two case halfs or do you use some sort of sealer? Some of my bikes used no center gasket and I used Yamabond. (which comes in a squeeze tube like toothpaste) for that application, the stuff is amazing !!!

Thank you again for all your help with this guys!

John

The transmission case has a gasket between the halves. It is available form Toro for about $5.

[Raider 2]

I just noticed this thread and may be too late to help but here's how my tractor is set up:

High current ignition/start switch, no solenoid. Wires from battery to switch and from switch to starter look to be #8 with crimped on eyelets sized for the screw terminals.

Engine harness has 3 wires in one plug, two outer wires (black) go to rectifier/regulator, one inner/upper wire (green?) goes to ignition/starter switch.

I get continuity from ground to the small wire terminal on the ignition/start switch in the off position and some resistance in the on position which leads me to believe the switch grounds the ignition to kill the engine in the off position. I think I've read somewhere before to be very careful not to apply voltage to the Tecumseh's ignition ground which would ruin it.

I assume the ignition/start switch is grounded through the chassis as there are only 3 terminals. This switch is not the same as a Kohler switch.

Double check anything I've observed before proceding and let me know if I'm in error, I only had a quick look at my machine and would not want my mistake to result in someone else's damaged electronics.

[Raider 2]

Here are a few pictures but they do not really show much as it's hard to see anything behind the tank and most of the wires are inside of a loom/sheath.

There are two cables from the positive post of the battery, one to the ammeter (get around to that later) and one to the ignition/start switch (bottom). From the ign. switch positive post (bottom) there is a lead going to the cig. lighter and another from there to the light switch. The cig lighter is grounded to chassis. The load side of the light switch has two wires, one to front lights one to rear lights, the lights are grounded to chassis.

Back to the ignition switch. The load terminal (start-top) of the ign. switch has a lead going directly to the starter, starter grounded to chassis. The third terminal (middle) of the ign. switch has a wire leading into the center terminal of the engine harness, this is the ignition ground (kill). The ignition switch is grounded to chassis.

The outer two wires of the engine harness are the AC leads and connect to the rectifier's outer posts. (My pictures don't show this direct route as I ran the loom up inside the dash cowl and my rectifier plug was broken so I crimped on individual female spade terminals and extenced leads which I soldered into the harness to make it reach from the cowl down to the rectifier.) The center post of the rectifier is wired to the ammeter which is then wired to the battery positive post.

The battery negative post is connected to the engine block at the drive belt guard bolt.

I hope that came out right, sorry the pictures don't show much. The wiring is quite simple though, I just copied what was there basically after giving a little thought to how it was all supposed to work. The original wiring was all cut up so I have no idea how it should have looked from the factory and don't care because usually it's a disgrace and I like my way of wiring when it comes to tractors (and boats).

Hope this helps some. If anyone sees a mistake in my text or wiring please point it out :)

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Raider

on the rewire.

One quick observation, the wires coming into the regulator seem to be a lesser gauge than than the orange one coming out for the B+ line.

Technically, the same current flows thru the AC terminals as exits from the reg thru the B+ terminal.

Unless your consistently drawing 15+ amps or more to charge a dying battery or power heavy lighting accessories, the lighter gauge wire may not be an issue.

Then again, this could be 12AWG wire with a thinner insulation on it.

Attached Image (Click thumbnail to expand)

[Horse'n Around 22]

Thank you for taking the time to take the pics and explaing with wiring. This will be of great help to me. I got to read your post last night, but when I tried to respond my computer froze up solid and it took me till this morning to be able to even get signed on and stay one long enough to do anything Oh well at least its working for me at this moment... for now. I need to buy a new computer and then find a bazooka and blow this thing up, that would give me a lot of satasfaction and it would be a great deal of fun too

Thank You agai for your help, I appreciate it a lot!

John

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

John, the other item I might have you avoid is any contact of the wiring with the steering wheel shaft.

Try to keep the wiring away from the rotating / vibrating steering wheel shaft. Constant friction between the shaft and wiring insulation can potentially wear away the insulation and cause electrical issues.

[Raider 2]

Raider

on the rewire.

One quick observation, the wires coming into the regulator seem to be a lesser gauge than than the orange one coming out for the B+ line.

Technically, the same current flows thru the AC terminals as exits from the reg thru the B+ terminal.

Unless your consistently drawing 15+ amps or more to charge a dying battery or power heavy lighting accessories, the lighter gauge wire may not be an issue.

Then again, this could be 12AWG wire with a thinner insulation on it.

The AC wires are #12s, same as stock and the DC wire is #10, overkill sure but I had the wire and with DC it can only help keep the voltage up where it should be (and yea my battery is usually half dead since I don't get teh tractor out very often and it would be drawing full current pretty much all the time replenishing the battery). Thanks for the compliments guys glad I could help.