E85 ?

[andrewLL 15]

Hi, I’m over in SW France where my horse lives and have just sorted half an acre of knee high grass and bracken, followed by French wine and duck. It’s a big duck area where I have a house.

 

When going for fuel they had E85 available which I have not seen in the uk and at €0.79 per litre compared with over €2 per litre for standard petrol with 10% ethanol it’s much cheaper. Does anyone have any experience of this fuel. Will my K301 Kohler run on it ok? Will it damage anything if I try? Can it be adjusted or modified to run on it acceptably, the savings are considerable. I would be interested in your thoughts, and even better your experience if any one has tried it. Thanks, Andrew.

[Pullstart 59,709]

Greetings!  Ethanol content even in regular fuel seems to wreak havoc on our small engines.  It gels up the fuel system and cracks the fuel lines pretty bad.  I can’t imagine using 85% ethanol.  I’d recommend saving it for an E85 rated vehicle 

[8ntruck 6,373]

I'll agree with @Pullstart.  An engine's fuel system needs to be designed for E85 to run well and not be damaged by the high ethanol content.  The engines used in Wheel Horses were intended for gasoline.

 

E85 is corrosive, and has a lower energy content per pound than gasoline, which requires carb jetting changes for a richer mixture.  Easy to do with electronic fuel injection, not so easy with a carb.

Edited June 30, 2022 by 8ntruck

[adsm08 1,431]

The savings are not that significant once you understand the physics of the fuel either.

 

To run properly, not be rich and fouling things, not be lean and running too hot and having no power, and to keep the emissions in line (a little less important on a lawn mower than a regulated automobile) the air fuel ratio of regular 100% gasoline is 14.7 lbs of air to 1 pound of fuel.

 

The same stoichiometric range on E85 is 9 lbs of air to 1 lb of fuel. Almost double. So by the time E85 is down to about 60% the price of regular fuel your cost savings will be eaten  up by the increased consumption needed to do the same work.

 

This is in addition to the running issues you will have, the special material parts you will need to purchase to make the fuel system resistant to the effects of the fuel, and be able to handle enough flow to get the proper mixture, and of course, the constant rebuilding or replacing of carburetors. The alcohol in flex fuels is corrosive in its own right, but it seems to have an especially aggressive reaction when placed in an area with both brass and aluminum. Guess what your carb body and throttle shaft are made of.

[lynnmor 6,777]

In addition to what @adsm08 said, an alcohol engine should have a much higher compression ratio to take advantage of the higher octane.  While modern engines have controls to adjust for the alcohol, a Wheel Horse will perform poorly, if at all, and waste a considerable amount of fuel.  Corn squeeins’ belong in your adult beverages, not in your gas tank.

[adsm08 1,431]

13 hours ago, lynnmor said:

In addition to what @adsm08 said, an alcohol engine should have a much higher compression ratio to take advantage of the higher octane.  While modern engines have controls to adjust for the alcohol, a Wheel Horse will perform poorly, if at all, and waste a considerable amount of fuel.  Corn squeeins’ belong in your adult beverages, not in your gas tank.

 

Yes and no. E85 can be used for high compression performance builds, but it can be run effectively in a 9:1 engine, you just need to adjust the timing accordingly.

 

The real problem there is that the timing needs to be adjusted for the mix, and flex fuels aren't consistent.

Edited June 30, 2022 by adsm08

[JoeM 7,625]

1 hour ago, adsm08 said:

increased consumption needed to do the same work

 

I started using non E fuel year round, just not in the fall before the machines are down for the winter. I use 20-30 percent less fuel to mow, and the machines really like it. 

No carb issues.

 

I picked up an old machine that had not been run since 08. I could not believe how clean the carb was inside. I put the IV bottle on her and just about started as I reached for the key. 

What a difference.

[adsm08 1,431]

12 hours ago, JoeM said:

 

I started using non E fuel year round, just not in the fall before the machines are down for the winter. I use 20-30 percent less fuel to mow, and the machines really like it. 

No carb issues.

 

I picked up an old machine that had not been run since 08. I could not believe how clean the carb was inside. I put the IV bottle on her and just about started as I reached for the key. 

What a difference.

 

You said it.

 

So FlexFuel became a thing in the late 90s, but wasn't wide spread. I started in automotive in 06 and had to do training on FF systems. My first thought was "Why would anyone do this?"

[lynnmor 6,777]

7 hours ago, adsm08 said:

 

You said it.

 

So FlexFuel became a thing in the late 90s, but wasn't wide spread. I started in automotive in 06 and had to do training on FF systems. My first thought was "Why would anyone do this?"

Follow the money, special interest’s are benefiting at the expense of the deplorables.

[953 nut 51,674]

55 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

Follow the money, special interest’s are benefiting at the expense of the deplorables.

           Additional treatment and energy are required to produce the 99.8 percent pure ethanol for mixing with gasoline. o Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTU.        

[lynnmor 6,777]

2 hours ago, 953 nut said:

           Additional treatment and energy are required to produce the 99.8 percent pure ethanol for mixing with gasoline. o Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTU.        

 

I wish we could really discuss this scam, but we aren't to talk politics.  The whole thing just stinks, but too few understand what is going on.

[adsm08 1,431]

18 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

 

I wish we could really discuss this scam, but we aren't to talk politics.  The whole thing just stinks, but too few understand what is going on.

 

The thing is it didn't even start as political, at least not partisanly political. The original idea was to reduce carbon emissions, but like so many other things done at the government level, it only looked at one tiny part of the entire system and tried to build a fix on that, while ignoring the entire rest of it. Then the corn farmers got addicted to the fancy ethanol money, because they make more selling corn for fuel than for feed or food, and started lobbying for more and more, until now we are stuck with it because nobody wants to piss off a large block of voters like that.

[Snoopy11 5,713]

1 hour ago, adsm08 said:

corn for fuel

Do those 2 words even go together?

 

Ethanol is bad for engines... period. Dries out rubber, dries out cylinder heads and pistons. I don't run ethanol fuels in any engine that I care about...

 

If something is cheaper... in many cases there are consequences...

 

Don