No spark

[BHunter 1,651]

This has been the most interesting Wheel Horse I’ve owned yet. Very challenging to figure out what has been done to this thing. 
I thought something was strange about this K301 because it has a kill button on the points cover, the oil dipstick is in the very front of the engine and there isn’t a sight hole on shroud to see timing marks on flywheel. 
Im grateful for all of you guys spending your time to try to figure this thing out and get running. I wouldn’t have been able to do it without you. This website is great and the members are too. I’m so happy to be a supporter of Redsquare

[peter lena 8,035]

@BHunter  have a spare ignition switch?  at each step , check what's going on , gain / loss , should be very close , maybe a chafed wire , all connections solid , sending out the start , wave to you , hope it helps out , pete

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,478]

Service bulletin 301e is one that lists the tractor models and the engines used.

The 1964 1054 and 1965 1054A list K241S-46215A and 47176. Always thought the 47176 was a typo.

K241 spec numbers are 46xxx

K301 spec numbers are 47xxx

 

Later learned the K301-47176 was a 12hp service replacement engine.

 

I now wonder if Kohler was supplying the K301 as a service replacement for the K241.

[953 nut 51,514]

10 hours ago, pfrederi said:

Don't ask why but the sight hole is on the rear of the shroud for S/G..There should be a corresponding mark on the rear of the bearing plate.

That would be true if this engine was pre - 1968 equipped with a S/G when built.  

[BHunter 1,651]

10 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

Service bulletin 301e is one that lists the tractor models and the engines used.

The 1964 1054 and 1965 1054A list K241S-46215A and 47176. Always thought the 47176 was a typo.

K241 spec numbers are 46xxx

K301 spec numbers are 47xxx

 

Later learned the K301-47176 was a 12hp service replacement engine.

 

I now wonder if Kohler was supplying the K301 as a service replacement for the K241.

The tractor is a 1967 and the motor is a 1969. It’s possible that the motor was replaced in 1969 with the k301.  It looks like this motor has been in this 1077 for decades. 

[BHunter 1,651]

30 minutes ago, peter lena said:

@BHunter  have a spare ignition switch?  at each step , check what's going on , gain / loss , should be very close , maybe a chafed wire , all connections solid , sending out the start , wave to you , hope it helps out , pete

I don’t have another switch. I ordered 2 online. My 877 probably has the right switch but I don’t want to take it all apart. It’s 25 degrees in the garage right now 

[BHunter 1,651]

52 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

That would be true if this engine was pre - 1968 equipped with a S/G when built.  

I just looked at my 877 s/g and that doesn’t have a sight hole either. 
Do I need to pull the head so I can see TDC and put a mark on the flywheel? Or can i put my finger in the spark plug hole and turn engine like I do with my hot rods? 
 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,478]

1 hour ago, BHunter said:

The tractor is a 1967 and the motor is a 1969. It’s possible that the motor was replaced in 1969 with the k301.  It looks like this motor has been in this 1077 for decades. 

According to the 10-digit serial number starting with 15 Kohler produced the engine in 1985

[BHunter 1,651]

10 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

According to the 10-digit serial number starting with 15 Kohler produced the engine in 1985

I read the 47176 was made in 1969. That’s why I thought it was a 69.  the 10digit sn shows it’s a 1985 . That’s good to know. Thanks for showing me that. 

[Gregor 4,838]

7 hours ago, BHunter said:

Do I need to pull the head so I can see TDC and put a mark on the flywheel?

When the key way on the flywheel is pointing straight up, the piston id at TDC. I think this was mentioned earlier, but I can't find it

Edited January 11, 2022 by Gregor

[953 nut 51,514]

11 hours ago, BHunter said:

I just looked at my 877 s/g and that doesn’t have a sight hole either.

Like Paul @pfrederi said, look under the S/G bracket on the engine bearing plate, the marks are  on the flywheel. Probably not too easy to see without sanding the rust off the flywheel.

11 hours ago, BHunter said:

Do I need to pull the head so I can see TDC

Keyway at the top is TDC, covered this about 20 posts beck.

[WHX?? 46,691]

12 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

I now wonder if Kohler was supplying the K301 as a service replacement for the K241

Interesting ...

Any sign if the motor was ever painted grey Bob? 

Yes Richard all my SG tractors the sight hole is on the bearing plate not the shroud. 

I never use them tho all mine run good with points @ 20 ... K91's like to favor more towards 18 thou. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by WHX??

[pfrederi 17,128]

2 minutes ago, WHX?? said:

Interesting ...

Any sign if the motor was ever painted grey Bob? 

Yes Richard all my SG tractors the sight hole is on the bearing plate not the shroud. 

But this wasn't a S/G engine it was a rope start  Who knows ....

Edited January 11, 2022 by pfrederi

[WHX?? 46,691]

Yep who knows... just for grins Bob check the PTO side and see if there is a 301 cast into the block. Might be under the PTO clutch plate. 

[Gregor 4,838]

15 hours ago, BHunter said:

 

One wire goes to the magneto , another goes to a kill switch and another goes to the points .
I’m going to work on the ground wires too. Hopefully it helps. 
 

After all this the first thing I would do is get rid of that wire going to the kill switch. Eliminate it as a possible problem.

[Fishroe 261]

On 1/10/2022 at 5:19 PM, BHunter said:

This has been the most interesting Wheel Horse I’ve owned yet. Very challenging to figure out what has been done to this thing. 
I thought something was strange about this K301 because it has a kill button on the points cover, the oil dipstick is in the very front of the engine and there isn’t a sight hole on shroud to see timing marks on flywheel. 
Im grateful for all of you guys spending your time to try to figure this thing out and get running. I wouldn’t have been able to do it without you. This website is great and the members are too. I’m so happy to be a supporter of Redsquare

I have a troybilt horse tiller with 7hp kohler cast iron motor.  It has the push button kill switch on points cover

[BHunter 1,651]

It’s running pretty good now. Mason took it for a ride over to the hill we use for testing the hydro.

[BHunter 1,651]

[BHunter 1,651]

I decided it’s running well the way it is so I'm going to leave the magneto in it for now. I’m wondering what type of ignition switch I need for this set up? Can I still use the original 1077 switch with the magneto?. There isn’t a wire going to the M tab on this switch. I want to get rid of this giant switch and put one in the dash

[953 nut 51,514]

2 hours ago, BHunter said:

Can I still use the original 1077 switch with the magneto?. There isn’t a wire going to the M tab on this switch.

          Seem to recall you (or somebody) saying there was a kill switch on this tractor.   

[BHunter 1,651]

11 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

          Seem to recall you (or somebody) saying there was a kill switch on this tractor.   

There is but I disconnected it. I used the button on the points cover to shut it off today.  

[Gregor 4,838]

So what finally got you spark?  Or did I miss it?

[953 nut 51,514]

You can use the three terminal ( B I S ) switch by adding a kill relay.  When the switch is placed in I or S the wire from I will have 12 volts applied. This wire will go to the  #85 terminal of the relay, flow through the coil of the relay to terminal #86 which is grounded. The current flowing through coil will activate the relay and open the normally closed (NC) #87a to # 30 which will allow the Magneto to produce high voltage ignition pulses as the points open. When the ignition is turned off the coil will no longer be magnetizing the relay and #87a and # 30 will close applying a ground to the magneto stopping the engine. Terminal # 87 is not used.

[BHunter 1,651]

1 hour ago, Gregor said:

So what finally got you spark?  Or did I miss it?

I cleaned the new points. They must of had a coating on them. That was the last thing I cleaned and finally got spark.

 I sanded and cleaned all of the ignition system and the magneto and still had nothing. I put the original spark plug back in today to see if that was the cause and it ran with it. I put the original condenser back on today and it ran with that too. 

[BHunter 1,651]

On 1/13/2022 at 7:52 PM, 953 nut said:

You can use the three terminal ( B I S ) switch by adding a kill relay.  When the switch is placed in I or S the wire from I will have 12 volts applied. This wire will go to the  #85 terminal of the relay, flow through the coil of the relay to terminal #86 which is grounded. The current flowing through coil will activate the relay and open the normally closed (NC) #87a to # 30 which will allow the Magneto to produce high voltage ignition pulses as the points open. When the ignition is turned off the coil will no longer be magnetizing the relay and #87a and # 30 will close applying a ground to the magneto stopping the engine. Terminal # 87 is not used.

Hi Richard. Would I be able to use this 4 prong relay? The parts store didn’t have a 5 prong . 87a does not have a prong on this one. 
The 1077 has been starting  fine until now. I left the wiring alone that the PO had on it. Now it starts randomly. The s/g turns the motor over when I put a jumper on the A terminal. I wonder if the magneto is starting to go. 
I just installed a new (BIS) switch and  I want to wire it like your diagram.