Makes no sense. What am I missing

[squonk 38,923]

9 minutes ago, oldredrider said:

If that engine were mine, I'd take it completely down. Metal in the gears is a bad sign.

Actually Paul it isn't metal. I picked some of it out and it's almost like gasket material but gunk non the less. Got to tear it all apart to fix the rod cap. everything's gotta get cleaned.

 

Checked the stroke. 2.75" so it's an 8. That's the only thing this kid was truthful about I'm afraid.

Edited July 12, 2021 by squonk

[stevasaurus 22,230]

It does look like the 2 piece...need to see outer side of the gear.  There was something in that thread, I linked to, that mentioned a different length of exhaust tappet for the 2 piece cam shaft without the ACR.  Something to check when you open the other engine.

 

[squonk 38,923]

My cam looks like the one pictured in the thread as the 2 piece. I wonder if the advance is stuck? Gotta tear the whole ball of wax apart any way.

 

Picture from the thread 2 piece cam:

 

 

Now the cam I have:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by squonk

[stevasaurus 22,230]

Does it look like someone has been in there Mike??  You might need to take the other one apart to compare if you have the one piece in that one.  Wish I was there playing bar-tender while sitting on the tail-gate.  

 

I can do that from Illinois, but it is not the same.  

[Handy Don 10,597]

Thanks for the insights, everyone. Following with interest.

I am wondering how the two parts of the cam go together! ("so until next time,....")

 

[stevasaurus 22,230]

I think it is the short piece, that comes apart....the gear and lobes are one piece.

[squonk 38,923]

3 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

Does it look like someone has been in there Mike??  You might need to take the other one apart to compare if you have the one piece in that one.  Wish I was there playing bar-tender while sitting on the tail-gate.  

 

I can do that from Illinois, but it is not the same.  

Steve I bought this sight unseen off of FB. It was advertised as "Rebuilt and will run" It does have a new piston with "I save Tractors printed on the top" new rod and bearings. Picked it up at the show pre paid. Kid now says "i couldn't get it to run."  If I hadn't paid for the thing a month before I would have walked away. Should have demanded my money back. Prolly wouldn't have done any good. Lesson learned.

 

Kid is not a member here as far as I know. If anyone wants his name, PM me.

[squonk 38,923]

Found this from Brian miller's site

 

About the 2 piece cam:

If you choose to reuse this camshaft to keep the engine "all original," when reinstalling the cam in the engine block, make sure the timing marks on both the cam gear and ignition cam (points lobe) are aligned, or the ignition timing will be 180º off and the engine will not start!

 

 

Sound exactly what I have!!!! 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by squonk

[Gregor 4,838]

In the above pics, it doesn't look to me like the cam lobes are lining up with the center of the valve stems. Seems to me they should. Or maybe it;s an optical "contusion" !

Edited July 12, 2021 by Gregor

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

12 minutes ago, Gregor said:

doesn't look to me like the cam lobes are lining up with the center of the valve stems

 

I think it's so that the tappets will rotate around.

Might be as it should be?

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

1 hour ago, stevasaurus said:

the gear and lobes are one piece.

 

If that is so, how would the advance mech work?  Doesn't the gear stay with the short piece and ride on a 'drum' of sorts which is part of the long piece?

 

The gear would have to be able to move with respect to the cam lobes, yes?

 

OR, does the VALVE timing remain constant WRT the crank and it's only the SPARK timing that varies?  So those weights are similar to the advance weights in an auto distributor (remember those anyone?)

 

NVM, I think I answered it on my own self...

 

 

So only the SPARK timing is changed then.

 

The lobe on the right in the pic is the mechanical fuel pump lobe?

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[buckrancher 2,675]

points lobe is 180 out of time you have to take the cam out and rotate the point lobe 180 on the front of the cam

[squonk 38,923]

1 minute ago, buckrancher said:

points lobe is 180 out of time you have to take the cam out and rotate the point lobe 180 on the front of the cam

Yup pretty much what I concluded. Points lobe 180 off and connecting rod 180 off. Freakin Kids! 

[squonk 38,923]

Well we learned a lot today! 

 

As my Grandmother would say:" The only people there are that can't learn anything are dead!" 

[buckrancher 2,675]

there should be marks on the cam and point lobe to line up so you know you have it right

[squonk 38,923]

I'll take pics once I get it out.

[richmondred01 2,205]

The two part cams are a pain to install. Everything has to be just right to include the position and the spring for the ARC. It takes a bit to get them all in place as well as the end play shim.

Additionally, the intake and exhaust tappets are different lengths on the k161, and k181.
Hopefully is wasn’t run with the rod hole not facing the cam. You will burn up the journal in short order.

Only guessing but he had the cam out and didn’t get it back correctly.

You need to tear it completely down. 
 

Edited July 13, 2021 by richmondred01

[squonk 38,923]

5 minutes ago, richmondred01 said:

The two part cams are a pain to install. Everything has to be just right to include the position and the spring for the ARC. It takes a bit to get them all in place as well as the end play shim.

Additionally, the intake and exhaust tappets are different lengths on the k161, and k181.
 

Mark, do you know the lengths of the tappets? Would it be easier to install the cam and tappets from my parts engine which I believe hasn't been tampered with?

[richmondred01 2,205]

Exhaust tappet on a two piece cam 1.964”

one piece cam 2.020”

 

[stevasaurus 22,230]

The one piece cam shaft has ACR...automatic compression release.

The two piece cam shaft has ASA...automatic spark advance

[richmondred01 2,205]

8 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

The one piece cam shaft has ACR...automatic compression release.

The two piece cam shaft has ASA...automatic spark advance

Yes.  You are 100% correct. I didn’t want to get into the weeds regarding the differences. 
the arc are so much easier to deal with. 

[Gregor 4,838]

I have rebuilt 2 k-181's. It's a good thing both of mine were 1 piece cams, as I have never heard of the 2 piece cam before. In the Kohler manual it says

 

I can find no where in the manual where it talks about 2 piece cams or ASA, but I might be over looking it. If I had opened it up and found a 2 piece cam, I'd have been lost.

[buckrancher 2,675]

page 12.2 figure 12-6 timing marks pre-ACR Camshaft in manual

[stevasaurus 22,230]

@Gregor  open that thread I linked to back at the bottom of the 1st page.  That material is there.  

[squonk 38,923]

Well folks all I can say is WOW FREAKIN WOW!!!!

I REALLY AM GLAD this thing didn't start. I'm beginning to think I should just cut bait on this thing and just peddle the good parts that are there. Started to tear into it. Opened the bearing plate without incident. Cam was aligned with the crank so they did at least one thing right.  By the way for reference when the marks are together the engine is at TDC beginning the intake stroke.

 

 

Got the cam out. Yes the cam shim WAS MISSING!!!  And unfortunately the points lobe fell off so I have no idea if it was on wrong or not but pretty sure it was.

 

I noticed one of the governor gears was seized open. Went to take it out. 1st the spring on the linkage wasn't connected to the arm.

 

 

Pulled out the rod AND THE FINGER THAT OPERATES THE GOVORNER IS GONE! 

 

 

You can see the little arm/tab in this pic from prondzy's thread

 

I couldn't even get the gear out. The welch plug in the block is so far in there isn't enough room to get the gear off the shaft. I did manage to get the weight free.

 

So to recap this "REBUILT ENGINE":

The points lobe on wrong

Cam washer missing

Broken governor arm and it's gone

Stuck governor weight

Governor linkage spring unhooked

Valves leaked by ( they did a quickie lap job and that was it)

Rod on backwards so the oil hole was on the wrong side