Adding a Safety switch

[WVHillbilly520H 10,369]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

I get this.

Just understand that by the time the engine knows to shut down, you may be mostly out of your seat and may even have feet on the ground. And then it'll take a few seconds for the engine to stop during which time the tractor could still move.

So let's be clear. To have the engine stop running (and not start running) whenever you are not seated is doable. Is that what you want?

Let me just say the seat switch on my Anniversary 520 was/is very sensitive, least little bit of off center and it would shut down rather quickly, now on the 95 the original seat was trash when I got it so it is still inoperable, better to mow side hills with.

Edited March 12, 2021 by WVHillbilly520H

[953 nut 51,667]

5 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Not sure if the 417-a had a hydro clutch, but it it does, good idea (still doesn't guarantee no movement, however).

If you pull up on the lever the belt is slack and it is going nowhere.

 

[Lcarter114 4]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

I get this.

Just understand that by the time the engine knows to shut down, you may be mostly out of your seat and may even have feet on the ground. And then it'll take a few seconds for the engine to stop during which time the tractor could still move.

So let's be clear. To have the engine stop running (and not start running) whenever you are not seated is doable. Is that what you want?

No.  My original thinking was to have it like my zero turn.  If you are moving and are out of the seat it will shutdown.  Now I am not married to anyone idea at this point, I was just looking for ideas.

[Lcarter114 4]

1 hour ago, Ed Kennell said:

Hang a big  warning sign on the steering wheel

Before leaving the seat

1. Set the parking brake

2. Disengage the transmission....417As have this lever

3. Disengage the PTO

4. Flip over the neutral lock plate  Designed by Jeff

 

If you do at least 2 of these, you shouldn't get injured.

 

Ok, I  don't need a lecture.  The parking brake was froze from snow.  I can't make it 80 degrees in February.  I  usually set it when I get off and leave it running.  Also I don't think there is anyone who can say they have never gotten off their piece of equipment without setting the brake at least once.  

[Ed Kennell 35,768]

I understand your parking brake was not functioning at the time.   That's why I listed other options to prevent the tractor from moving.   You are correct, we all need to be reminded to take the necessary precautions to prevent accidents.      Seems my post has upset you Sir, and for that I am sorry and have removed the post.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

12 minutes ago, Lcarter114 said:

Ok, I  don't need a lecture.  The parking brake was froze from snow.  I can't make it 80 degrees in February.  I  usually set it when I get off and leave it running.  Also I don't think there is anyone who can say they have never gotten off their piece of equipment without setting the brake at least once.  

I think you asked a valid question, that was initially misunderstood, me too at first.  I offered an idea but you might have to work out the details because it doesn't seem that "WE" have done that before.  

We currently have a new topic: "Bone Head Moves", and I could fill that to capacity.  That's why deadly equipment has safety features, but perhaps until you or someone else figures out how to implement your idea, the existing features and warnings is all "WE" got.

[Lcarter114 4]

1 minute ago, Ed Kennell said:

I understand your parking brake was not functioning at the time.   That's why I listed other options to prevent the tractor from moving.   You are correct, we all need to be reminded to take the necessary precautions to prevent accidents.      Seems my post has upset you Sir, and for that I am sorry and have removed the post.

Don't worry about it.  I  know I should have been more careful.  My bigger concern is not for me.  I will from now on disengage the transmission and if I can't set the brake, turn it off.  However I  worry if my wife or someone else has that happen what will they do.  I  was able to think quickly enough to turn off the key before it ripped my leg.  I  had my leg stuck under the tractor to my knee, but luckily no broken bones, just a knee that bothers me all the time.  I am just trying to prevent it from happening again.

 

[Lcarter114 4]

4 minutes ago, DennisThornton said:

I think you asked a valid question, that was initially misunderstood, me too at first.  I offered an idea but you might have to work out the details because it doesn't seem that "WE" have done that before.  

We currently have a new topic: "Bone Head Moves", and I could fill that to capacity.  That's why deadly equipment has safety features, but perhaps until you or someone else figures out how to implement your idea, the existing features and warnings is all "WE" got.

I am just looking for ideas and suggestions.  I  am always thinking of new projects for myself.  Like I don't have enough.  I like the locking lever idea.  It is simple, mechanical and effective.   

[Lcarter114 4]

7 hours ago, R Scheer said:

The downside to this idea is that you would have to stay on the tractor when warming up the engine.  I try to do a 5 minute warmup before engaging the transmission, having to sit and wait for 5 minutes could prove aggravating.

 

That being said you could probably use the neutral safety switch and the seat switch to run a relays, one pair of contacts used to do the same function as designed.  The second set of contacts could be run in series to give operator seated + not in neutral to stop the engine by opening removing 12V from the coil.  Anything can be done but the added complexity, I'm not sure it would be worth it.

That is what I was thinking originally using a couple of relays.  There is no neutral safety switch on mine so I would have to add the switch. Still mulling over all the ideas.  I have been given some good ones.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Lcarter114

[DennisThornton 4,769]

Just now, Lcarter114 said:

That is what I was thinking originally using a couple of relays.  Still mulling over all the ideas.  I have been given some good ones.

I have a several WH hydros but never worked on the hydro linkage so I'm not going to be much further help having already offered my only idea.  After thinking about your request I'm sort of surprised that I've seen it implemented by some manufacture.  Maybe you're on to something.

[Ed Kennell 35,768]

14 minutes ago, Lcarter114 said:

  However I  worry if my wife or someone else has that happen what will they do. 

With multiple and possibly inexperienced operators,  may be the best option would be a simple seat safety switch that interrupts the 12V. to the ignition switch.     The tractor could still coast if the operator left the seat w/o setting the brake,  but at least it would not be under power.

 

BTW, all my hydros have a one pedal spring loaded foot motion  control pedal that goes to reverse if the brake is not engaged.    I am the only operator of these tractors.

[Handy Don 10,596]

16 hours ago, Lcarter114 said:

No.  My original thinking was to have it like my zero turn.  If you are moving and are out of the seat it will shutdown.  Now I am not married to anyone idea at this point, I was just looking for ideas.

Thanks for adding this thought.

Detecting that the operator is out of the seat is straightforward and the machine already has a switch for that (it comes into play when the PTO is engaged)

Detecting that the motion lever is not in neutral is also straightforward on machines that have a switch for that (yours apparently does not, according to the wiring diagram). You can likely buy and add this switch--it mounts under the console floor plate. So the conditions are these:

 

The engine runs as long as:

1.  Operator is in seat (regardless of PTO or motion lever)
2.  PTO is disengaged and motion is in neutral (regardless of operator in or out of seat)

The engine starts as long as:

1.  PTO is disengaged and motion is in neutral (regardless of operator in or out of seat or position brake pedal). I'm assuming that since your brake was frozen but the tractor started that the pedal interlock shown in the wiring diagram has been defeated. Please clarify.

Electrically, the start and run circuits are separate--this is a good thing for reliability and safety. So what's needed is a DPDT (double pole - double throw) lever-actuated microswitch mounted to detect neutral (or two SPDT versions ganged together like in the PTO mechanism). No relay is needed.

One NO* (normally open) side will be wired in place of the existing pedal interlock sensor in the starting circuit--this prevents starts while lever is not in neutral.

One NO* (normally open) side will be wired into the existing circuit between the PTO switch and the "+" terminal on the ignition coil -- this stops the engine when the motion lever is out of neutral unless the operator is in the seat.

* NO contacts are closed when the motion lever is in neutral.

 

These two attached images show how the switch gets mounted to the console plate to detect the lever in neutral.

   

 

 

This image is a modified wiring diagram showing the changes (circled with orange highlighter).

 

I hope the wiring gurus will double check me here.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Handy Don

[Lcarter114 4]

48 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Thanks for adding this thought.

Detecting that the operator is out of the seat is straightforward and the machine already has a switch for that (it comes into play when the PTO is engaged)

Detecting that the motion lever is not in neutral is also straightforward on machines that have a switch for that (yours apparently does not, according to the wiring diagram). You can likely buy and add this switch--it mounts under the console floor plate. So the conditions are these:

 

The engine runs as long as:

1.  Operator is in seat (regardless of PTO or motion lever)
2.  PTO is disengaged and motion is in neutral (regardless of operator in or out of seat)

The engine starts as long as:

1.  PTO is disengaged and motion is in neutral (regardless of operator in or out of seat or position brake pedal). I'm assuming that since your brake was frozen but the tractor started that the pedal interlock shown in the wiring diagram has been defeated. Please clarify.

Electrically, the start and run circuits are separate--this is a good thing for reliability and safety. So what's needed is a DPDT (double pole - double throw) lever-actuated microswitch mounted to detect neutral (or two SPDT versions ganged together like in the PTO mechanism). No relay is needed.

One NO* (normally open) side will be wired in place of the existing pedal interlock sensor in the starting circuit--this prevents starts while lever is not in neutral.

One NO* (normally open) side will be wired into the existing circuit between the PTO switch and the "+" terminal on the ignition coil -- this stops the engine when the motion lever is out of neutral unless the operator is in the seat.

* NO contacts are closed when the motion lever is in neutral.

 

These two attached images show how the switch gets mounted to the console plate to detect the lever in neutral.

   

 

 

This image is a modified wiring diagram showing the changes (circled with orange highlighter).

 

I hope the wiring gurus will double check me here.

 Just looking this over to make sure I follow it completely.  If I understand this correctly I would need two normally open switches to detect when the lever is not in the neutral position?

 This looks simple enough to do and would solve the problem.  Thanks for the info.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

49 minutes ago, Lcarter114 said:

 Just looking this over to make sure I follow it completely.  If I understand this correctly I would need two normally open switches to detect when the lever is not in the neutral position?

 This looks simple enough to do and would solve the problem.  Thanks for the info.

Took over a day but I think you have your answer!

[Jeff-C175 7,195]

18 hours ago, Lcarter114 said:

Ok, I  don't need a lecture.  ... I don't think there is anyone who can say they have never gotten off their piece of equipment without ...

 

I do.  I won't admit to this, it wasn't me, it was someone who looks just like me though...

 

Something about a cement block on the seat, engaging the mower deck, and squirting the garden hose underneath to clean the deck out.

 

Maybe that someone who looks just like me should simply install a washout port?

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Handy Don 10,596]

1 hour ago, Lcarter114 said:

Just looking this over to make sure I follow it completely.  If I understand this correctly I would need two normally open switches to detect when the lever is not in the neutral position?

 This looks simple enough to do and would solve the problem.  Thanks for the info.

YW.

Yes, Two switches of the type you can see in the picture ganged together so both are controlled by the motion lever (an example is the two switches attached to the PTO mechanism). It would also be fine to have a single body DPDT. Just be sure to wire each side separately as if they were two switches! 

As far as connections, I'll leave it to you to find the best way to make them secure and weatherproof in convenient locations. Be sure to print the diagram and save it with your tractor documents so you have a reference!

 

Is the pedal interlock defeated?

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Handy Don

[Ed Kennell 35,768]

21 hours ago, Handy Don said:

Just understand that by the time the engine knows to shut down, you may be mostly out of your seat and may even have feet on the ground. And then it'll take a few seconds for the engine to stop

I tested the movement of my 312H (Eaton 1100).     With the tractor at idle and in neutral, at the same instant, I turned off the key and moved the motion lever forward.    On level pavement, the 312 moved forward  25 inches.    I'll do the same test on my 417A when I start the mowing season.

[Handy Don 10,596]

20 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

I tested the movement of my 312H (Eaton 1100).     With the tractor at idle and in neutral, at the same instant, I turned off the key and moved the motion lever forward.    On level pavement, the 312 moved forward  25 inches.    I'll do the same test on my 417A when I start the mowing season.

Wow. Thanks for checking this out and sharing the result, Ed.

 

 

[Lcarter114 4]

17 hours ago, Handy Don said:

YW.

Yes, Two switches of the type you can see in the picture ganged together so both are controlled by the motion lever (an example is the two switches attached to the PTO mechanism). It would also be fine to have a single body DPDT. Just be sure to wire each side separately as if they were two switches! 

As far as connections, I'll leave it to you to find the best way to make them secure and weatherproof in convenient locations. Be sure to print the diagram and save it with your tractor documents so you have a reference!

 

Is the pedal interlock defeated?

 

The pedal lock is not defeated.  It was my left leg that was pinned so I couldn't reach it.  I looked at my tractor last night and my gear shift plate is straight.  There is linkage and plate on top of the transmission where I maybe able to mount the switch.

[Handy Don 10,596]

4 minutes ago, Lcarter114 said:

The pedal lock is not defeated.  It was my left leg that was pinned so I couldn't reach it.  I looked at my tractor last night and my gear shift plate is straight.  There is linkage and plate on top of the transmission where I maybe able to mount the switch.

 

Ah! Now I see how the motion control is vulnerable to being moved. I haven't seen this configuration before.

Looking at the relevant section of the parts list for your tractor here. That detent plate, visible in your picture, flexes slightly to permit the lever to move out of the "neutral" detent to  forward and reverse positions.

Configuring a sturdy and reliable switch arrangement here that detects when the motion lever or linkage is (or is not) "in the middle" will be harder. This will need some thought, as my original idea won't work.

(As a side note, I'm guessing that for this model, the engineers were content with the pedal interlock to assure safety when starting the engine and didn't look to the mount/dismount situation that you want to address. Other models had the same plate arrangement as my '88 518-H.

[Lcarter114 4]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

Ah! Now I see how the motion control is vulnerable to being moved. I haven't seen this configuration before.

Looking at the relevant section of the parts list for your tractor here. That detent plate, visible in your picture, flexes slightly to permit the lever to move out of the "neutral" detent to  forward and reverse positions.

Configuring a sturdy and reliable switch arrangement here that detects when the motion lever or linkage is (or is not) "in the middle" will be harder. This will need some thought, as my original idea won't work.

(As a side note, I'm guessing that for this model, the engineers were content with the pedal interlock to assure safety when starting the engine and didn't look to the mount/dismount situation that you want to address. Other models had the same plate arrangement as my '88 518-H.

I am going to take off the plate and see if I can mount a switch at the indent.   

I have been keeping my eye out for a 520.  I  like my 417 but the hour meter shows 1400 hours.  I  bought it used a few years ago.  It runs good and has no real issues, but I would like to have a gear drive instead of a hydro.  I think it would be better when using the tiller.  

[Handy Don 10,596]

48 minutes ago, Lcarter114 said:

I am going to take off the plate and see if I can mount a switch at the indent.   

I have been keeping my eye out for a 520.  I  like my 417 but the hour meter shows 1400 hours.  I  bought it used a few years ago.  It runs good and has no real issues, but I would like to have a gear drive instead of a hydro.  I think it would be better when using the tiller.  

I hope you are able to figure it out. You can leave out the start switch in my diagram if you are comfortable with the pedal interlock and focus only on the run switch.

 

Consider posting in the classifieds if you'd consider a trade! The 17hp Kohler paired with the 1100 Eaton is a desirable setup to some folks and there are plenty of members capable of overhauling that engine, if it needs it.

There are very few 416-8 and 520-8's around. Most are hydros. Others will weigh in on the HP needed to till but you might do just fine with something smaller. What other implements do you use?

[Lcarter114 4]

32 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

I hope you are able to figure it out. You can leave out the start switch in my diagram if you are comfortable with the pedal interlock and focus only on the run switch.

 

Consider posting in the classifieds if you'd consider a trade! The 17hp Kohler paired with the 1100 Eaton is a desirable setup to some folks and there are plenty of members capable of overhauling that engine, if it needs it.

There are very few 416-8 and 520-8's around. Most are hydros. Others will weigh in on the HP needed to till but you might do just fine with something smaller. What other implements do you use?

I just use it for the snowblower and the tiller.  It has plenty of power and if not for the tiller the hydro would be great.  I am not sure if the hours are actual or if it has already been overhauled.  For the price I couldn't pass it up.   $1200 for the tractor,  48" deck, tiller, snowblower and trac vac, wheel weights and chains.

[Handy Don 10,596]

2 hours ago, Lcarter114 said:

I just use it for the snowblower and the tiller.  It has plenty of power and if not for the tiller the hydro would be great.  I am not sure if the hours are actual or if it has already been overhauled.  For the price I couldn't pass it up.   $1200 for the tractor,  48" deck, tiller, snowblower and trac vac, wheel weights and chains.

There is one other (somewhat pricey) option. Convert to a pedal for motion control. The lever is gone and if your foot is off the pedal(s) it isn't moving. This fellow's (member and in classified vendors section) product has gotten lots of positive feedback. https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/forum/103-matts-custom-hydro-pedal-kit/

[DennisThornton 4,769]

Love my WHs with factory "Motion Control"!  Haven't used the others since I got "Motion Control" so I'd consider it.  Sure is nice for mowing!