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Maxwell-8

Vaccination in Belgium

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Maxwell-8

Vaccination has finally started here in Belgium.

200 people got the Pfizer vaccin.

Still a long way to go but a step closer to Wheel Horses Shows!!

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Stormin

 Vaccination started in UK last week. More restrictions start New Years eve. No non essential travel. Only for work or for provisions etc. No visiting. Only essential shops open. No hairdressers, gyms etc.

 Practically a total lockdown. Not surprising really, the way some irresponsible people have been behaving.

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Handy Don

BBC News covered some of that misbehavior in Australia and in Switzerland recently.

I get the weariness around this, heck I'm totally weary myself. Still, for all the people who've weathered an infection with only moderate discomfort or don't know anyone who got really sick or died, I refer to the number of asymptomatic carriers, extreme vulnerability of some segments of the population, and a healthcare system capacity not well matched to the requirements for treating this disease. These signal to me that preventing spread is the only practical course for the time being. The steps to do that are clear but clearly not fun. Sigh.

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adsm08
23 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

 The steps to do that are clear

 

I disagree on this point.

 

With so many studies showing that masking make not measurable difference in spread (we might be talking about a reduction of one case per 100,000 individuals in the population) but that is the biggest thing we are told is going to save us? Not buying it.

 

Properly worn N95 masks may help, if worn all the time, but we don't have the supplies for that, nor the training. The masks that everyone who is not working in a hospital are wearing are not even pretending to be an effective source control measure.

Edited by adsm08
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Stormin

  There's a lot more to it than wearing masks. Anything, no matter how small or inconvenient is worth doing. You don't have to be an Einstein to realise this is serious and not a hoax.

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adsm08
5 minutes ago, Stormin said:

 Anything, no matter how small or inconvenient is worth doing.

 

Again, I disagree. If something is totally ineffective it is in fact not worth doing, and may be detrimental in other ways.

 

Washing hands, limiting physical contact, keeping physical distance, not making unnecessary trips out. These are things that are effective and useful. A number of studies show that any "difference" created by wearing masks is no more than a statistical anomaly.

 

However, having everyone wearing masks all the time has easily demonstrated detrimental effects in other areas.

 

I believe the phrase "He who defends everything defends nothing" may apply here. Universal masking, once proven ineffective, is nothing more than a drain on resources that could be put to better use doing something useful.

Edited by adsm08

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Stormin

Maybe I should rephrase that.

 

Anything, no matter how small or inconvenient, that may help stop the spread of the virus, is worth doing.

 

 

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jabelman

So keeping the walmarts and targets open jammed full of shoppers with masks is ok, but we have to shut small private owned businesses down even though they can keep people separated.  Got it

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Handy Don

Not going to argue about masks' effectiveness, especially given the general misunderstandings about what their construction and how they get worn (though as a quant myself, I am not comfortable with the stat cited.)

Nor will I argue that a great many of the daily interactions of many people that take place quickly, distanced, and outdoors should be banned.

To me (a well-trained mask wearer using previously-stocked N95's or better), the mask is for my protection but mainly it serves as a reminder to others about avoiding extended close contact, especially indoors, in poorly ventilated spaces with anyone you cannot be sure is virus-free. Some recent MIT modeling, very crude as it was, suggested that less than 10 minutes of exposure can communicate the virus.

I'll also note that in a country of 300+ million, 0.1% of the population is 300,000 people. The total staffed-bed capacity of all hospitals in the US is a bit over 900,000 (for all levels of care) and about 100,000 for intensive care alone. (Note that these figures pre-date the pandemic and do not account for either temporary redeployments or staffing shortages.)

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Stormin

 If that's what's happening in the big stores, then avoid those places. We go to our local private stores for what we need. Essential businesses are open over here. That depends of course on what you call essential. But their owners are following certain rules and not allowing crowding.

Edited by Stormin

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stevasaurus

@adsm08  sure would like to see some of these studies you are finding.  I've seen nothing like what you are talking about.  Just like to know where you are finding all these stats.  Actually, for all the numbers you are posting, you should back them up.  The president's team and the CDC are not saying anything like you are saying.  :eusa-think:

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rmaynard

@stevasaurus you were masked, social distanced, washed hands, sanitized surfaces, and avoided crowds. You caught Covid. I've been masked, social distanced, washed hands, sanitized surfaces, and avoided crowds. I haven't gotten Covid. Here's my question, WHY? I don't think even the smartest of scientists have a clue. However, I will continue to err on the side of caution, even if there is no concrete proof it really works.

 

I tend to agree with my son who thinks it's genetics. 

Edited by rmaynard
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adsm08
23 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

@adsm08  sure would like to see some of these studies you are finding.  I've seen nothing like what you are talking about.  Just like to know where you are finding all these stats.  Actually, for all the numbers you are posting, you should backed them up.  The president's team and the CDC are not saying anything like you are saying.  :eusa-think:

https://rationalground.com/the-human-studies-cited-by-the-cdcs-recent-scientific-brief-do-not-support-community-masking/

 

https://rationalground.com/post-thanksgiving-mask-charts-still-no-evidence-that-masks-work/

 

Here are two of the more easily found data sets used in my assertions.

 

The President's team, including Fauci, have some serious credibility issues no matter what they say, since they have openly admitted to lying about instructions that were later contradicted. I don't care if the first thing was the lie, or the second one, but they lied, they said they lied, and I no longer trust anything they say, thus I look into what data is available to me and largely draw my own conclusions. Not being a trained practitioner of the Devil's Math (statistics) I sometimes have to rely on others for the data analysis.

 

Additionally CDC spent over sixty years studying the effects of masks on airborne spread of respiratory viruses, and repeatedly concluded that they do nothing. Up until this year that is, now suddenly we should all be born with the stupid things permanently attached. What changed so suddenly that they won't even acknowledge their previous position held for almost a century?

 

Plus we are told to wear them eight or more hours a day, and that its perfectly healthy, but everyone leaves out the part about how they shouldn't be reused, they should be changed every 90 minutes (of course when you search for any of that these days all you get is instructions for reusing disposable masks), etc. I wear my mask for 5 or 10 minutes and it is streaked with black dirt, on the inside from touching my skin.

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adsm08
9 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

@stevasaurus you were masked, social distanced, washed hands, sanitized surfaces, and avoided crowds. You caught Covid. I've been masked, social distanced, washed hands, sanitized surfaces, and avoided crowds. I haven't gotten Covid. Here's my question, WHY? I don't think even the smartest of scientists have a clue. However, I will continue to err on the side of caution, even if there is no concrete proof it really works.

 

I tend to agree with my son who thinks it's genetics. 

 

Genetics plays a huge role in so many things.

 

One of the more direct links we have between genetics and COVID outcomes is that blood-type seems to have a link on severity of outcome.

 

Since I'm being asked for my homework:

 

https://www.webmd.com/coronavirus-in-context/video/roy-silverstein

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jabelman

Good thing we have all those dna, ancestry database websites.  Wonder who's buying all that data up

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stevasaurus

Yes, my wife and I practiced what they told us, but then my daughter moved back in and some of the friends that helped move her got it.  We figure that's how we got it.  It's hard to say how we got it.  I have no doubt that this whole thing was handled badly, and a lot of people did not have to get sick or die.  I don't think anybody really knew how to deal with this...it could have been on our newspaper that we pick up in the morning.  At least we are not burning witches...yet.  

   @adsm08  Thanks for the articles...I will read them.  :occasion-xmas:

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adsm08
45 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

 

   @adsm08  Thanks for the articles...I will read them.  :occasion-xmas:

 

The links I posted are not the articles themselves, they are the stats analysis and data charts, with a brief of the findings. I tend to not link to the actual articles I read, because someone always finds a way to put a political spin on things, so I try to link to the source materials cited in the articles I read, if I bother to read the article instead of skipping to the source material myself.

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stevasaurus
11 minutes ago, adsm08 said:

I tend to not link to the actual articles I read, because someone always finds a way to put a political spin on things, so I try to link to the source materials cited in the articles I read, if I bother to read the article instead of skipping to the source material myself.

 

That is the problem, isn't it??  If you read something, or I read something...we can believe it or not. It comes down to what we believe and what we want to believe.  Our problem is that we are getting tired of being lied to, and we are not really sure what the truth is anymore.  I, for one, like a little back and forth (like this).  I listen to all sides, and like you, go with what makes sense to me.  The thing to not do...don't talk down to anybody here.  Like you, we are all entitled to our opinion.  We are also entitled to keep our opinions to ourselves.  Keep the politics out of it and back up your claims.  I know it is a fine line, but we are all ///well you know.  :occasion-xmas:

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jabelman

I have probably said this before, I feel like I am living now in a world written by rod serling of the twilight zone

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Handy Don

For hospital data, I used the American Hospital Association information from 2018 published this year and summarized on their website

 

For my personal acceptance of the idea that a COVID infected person at a communicable stage of the disease can significantly reduce the risk of spreading it to others by using a properly worn mask is gleaned from many sources but is well summarized in a section of the CDC Website on masking science. Yes, ideally masks should be single use. Yes, they are uncomfortable. Yes, being "made" to wear one is an encroachment on my freedom. I have no standing nor sufficient data to be an authority on the loss of efficacy of a mask worn all day or to state that it is worthless. I am not free to risk infecting others by my actions when I have no way of knowing if or when I have an asymptomatic infection. My actions must contribute to the common good, not simply avoid being detrimental.

 

@stevasaurus's experience shows that someone not aware of being infectious can inadvertently infect multiple people.

 

I too, feel betrayed when leaders lie. Yet, I accept that some that lies are worse than others (yes, shades of "Animal Farm") and that not all liars are irredeemable. In my opinion, the more important activity is to research and rebut lies carefully, not discard everything or ignore the liar, and to air facts with the proper context and relevance.  

 

 

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wallfish

:text-yeahthat:

On 12/30/2020 at 9:16 PM, Handy Don said:

 I am not free to risk infecting others by my actions when I have no way of knowing if or when I have an asymptomatic infection. My actions must contribute to the common good, not simply avoid being detrimental.

Very well stated. I'm not a fan of wearing a mask but it's highly doubtful wearing one adds to the problem. It's certainly more possible not wearing one does add to the problem! So I wear the masks. It's not about protecting yourself, it's about protecting others from you. Referring to N95, proper wearing and changing of masks is about protecting the wearer and misses the point. The last thing I want is to get someone else sick if it can possibly be avoided. My own experience of wearing a mask is very clear how it will become damp over time. That moisture in the mask is coming from the lungs, mouth nose and every molecule of it caught in the mask (no matter how small) equals that much less of it was spewed into the surrounding air. No information, study or graph on the internet can dispute the fact that wearing a mask is catching a percentage of that moisture leaving the body.  Common sense might then logically determine a lower percentage of those molecules introduced into the air will most likely lower the percentage chances of someone else inhaling them, or at minimum inhaling less of them. Inhaling how many droplets does it take to catch it? One, five, forty, two thousand? No one knows but if the mask only catches one it's one less that has the chance to infect someone else. No matter how small the percentage it helps it's better than zero and only a mild inconvenience. Can we at least agree some spread of the virus is possibly caused by the exchange of these airborne fluids?

 

On 12/30/2020 at 5:58 PM, stevasaurus said:

Our problem is that we are getting tired of being lied to, and we are not really sure what the truth is anymore.

Exactly. Misinformation everywhere

https://allianceforscience.cornell.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Evanega-et-al-Coronavirus-misinformationFINAL.pdf

 

Bet there's another article and or study with graphs out there which state masks can be effective.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/06/21/880832213/yes-wearing-masks-helps-heres-why

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext#

 

Curious about those graphs posted as they show when a mask mandate was implemented but fail to consider the percentage of compliance. It's clear many still don't care to wear a mask so using that data as fact is a bit biased. Could those numbers of positive tests be only one less person infected if EVERYONE complied? Possibly? Could those numbers of infected be higher if no one complied at all? Possibly?

Even if wearing a mask does nothing at all as far as spreading the virus it is still considered common courtesy at this particular time. Wearing it makes the majority of other people around you more comfortable than not so simple common courtesy should prevail. Saying "Thank You" does absolutely nothing to prevent the virus from spreading either but I still say it. 

 

Sorry for the rant! But the stupid efftard coughing on me yesterday in the store line really peed me off! 

 

 

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rmaynard

Every day is a new surprise and you can't believe most of what you hear :eusa-liar:

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Zeek
Posted (edited)

I'm just glad I live where I do. While we do wear masks in places like grocery stores and use sanitizer, we are not locked down and haven't been since April. We can pretty much go about business as usual. It's warm here so we do a lot of outdoor dining one or twice a week. Schools are in session. I drive a school bus part-time for toy money. We wear masks on the buses and sanitize them between routes. None of us are dropping like flies. :coffee:

Edited by Zeek
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rmaynard

My brother-in-law lives in Leesburg, FL during the winter. He told us yesterday that if he didn't see the masks in stores and other indoor locations, you wouldn't know there is a problem. People are just going about their business. 

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squonk

It's nuts here. Schools are going remote not because of the kids but because of the staff. Not enough teachers, Then the aides get sick, then the custodial staff. Now there is no one to teach or clean. We had to go to a school last week. Got an emergency call that a walk in cooler was down. We get there and find out that the entire kitchen staff was not there as they were exposed the day before and were quarantined. Great! We still have to go into the kitchen to work on this thing. And people wondered why I retired yesterday! 

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