Stumbling K241 update/questions

[giantsean 59]

Hey folks... still struggling with this choppy beast.  I managed to get the Chinese carb going (the OEM is toast due to having had to drill out the main jet) and lo and behold the elbow DOES thread in if you manage to keep it straight and use the force.  Took quite a few tries though.  I kept the #30 carb to pirate its throttle shaft (with the ball) as the screw holes line up, so that was that.

 

Otherwise here is what else was done so far:

Changed out the fuel lines and filter

new gas w/ 2x-3x dose of seafoam (probably a waste at this point)

new Autolite 216 plug gapped to .25 (EDIT: I found a manual telling me to use .35 so will try that tomorrow)

re-adjusted governor,

swapped in aforementioned Chinese carb, mucked with the needles

checked points and they are 0.20

 

Net net, it still ides "okay" (at about 1300 rpm) and when dialed in will at least run at like 1/4 throttle, again "okay" (missed a bit).  Anything WOT and fuel will spit out the front of the carb.  It is smoking consistently but I'm chalking that up to all the Seafoam.  Plug is already black and wet when inspected.

 

I tested spark with a spark tester... there is spark but it cuts out here and there

I hooked up a timing light just to see what was what. Did not paint the mark yet but I noticed that the flashes were a bit erratic, not a typical pattern.

It looks that the PO replaced the coil and condenser, so not blaming them yet

 

Otherwise I'm a little baffled.  It appears that this is an ignition or timing problem (or maybe my gap is too big - just wondering as I type).  By all appearances these are battery ignition, but what actually opens and closes the points? (assume something on the cam?)  Whatever it is, can it go bad?  The manual is not that detailed and spends a lot of time on the magneto systems which this isn't.

 

Also, what about initial throttle setting?  The manual doesn't cover how to adjust the governor to throttle threaded arm, or how to set the idle screw.  I imagine there must be some differences between the old and new carb that need to be set up right.  Special thanks to Kohler and/or Wheel Horse for putting the coil directly next to the idle screw, for easy adjustment.  And by easy, I mean impossible.

 

Thanks as always for any ideas!

Edited July 22, 2019 by giantsean

[ebinmaine 63,091]

A few things come to mind.

 

5 hours ago, giantsean said:

replaced the **************, so not blaming them yet

 

Never assume a new part is a working part.

I used to auto parts for a living and the acceptable defective rate was between 2% and 5% depending on manufacturer.

 

Perhaps remove the Seafoam gas and replace it with straight non ethanol.

 

Is the "new" carb cleaned out?

I literally cleaned my "new Chinese carb" 3 times then bought a replacement Kohler carb.

 

Are you sure the float isn't sticking/stuck?

 

Is the condenser actually good and connected to negative coil?

 

Please post pics of why you can't adjust due to coil placement.

I keep a long 1/4" blade flat screwdriver around for that.

 

 

[wallfish 15,918]

Smoking consistently isn't seafoam as it burns clean. Black smoke is extra fuel, white smoke is oil burning

A black soot spark plug is an indication it's running rich. Most of the time those chinese carbs fire right up and only need minimal adjustment.

Not sure why your coil is in the way of any adjustment and you can probably thank the previous owner for moving it in the way

Spin the engine by hand and you will see the points open/close. There's a small rod which rides on a camshaft lobe. Search "static timing" as the points gap is what adjusts timing

 

My first guess would be a bad condenser. But I have also had issues with new chinese carbs flooding out with no apparent reason why.

[oldredrider 2,547]

I agree with @wallfish on this. A bad condenser is the probable cause. Cheap to replace. Make sure it is grounded well and connected to neg. side on the coil.

[pfrederi 17,146]

Quick easy test.  Disconnect your condenser and see if things improve....

[pacer 3,159]

Your description does indeed sound like a possible condenser problem.

 

Couple months ago I had an Onan giving very similar symptoms as you describe -  had pulled the points/condenser twice and other than cleaning they looked fine. After much frustration I decided to once again go thru the common steps to correct the surging - adjust carb/ck wiring/ck fuel and ignition, etc. Had again pulled the points/cond and again looked fine --- but on re-installation I happened to see what looked like a crack in the condensers wire insulation so pulled it back out and gave a closer look see.... See the picture, thats the crack after I bent the wire!!! it was almost invisible at first, but definitely was letting the magic electrons leak out. I let out a loud WHOOPEE! and went and scrounged another condenser and --- oh yeah, that Onan purred like a kitten!!

 

[giantsean 59]

Soooooooo... I gapped the plug to .35.  No change.  BTW the condenser is wired correctly but it was held to the painted coil with a zip tie.  Not sure how I didn't notice that before lol.

 

As I was looking through the pile of "old" parts he gave me w/ the rig, including points, condenser, and coil... my mind started to go back to him telling me that it "used to run perfect" which made me wonder... maybe he tuned it up with bag of sh*t parts.

 

I put the "old" condenser back on to the negative pole and slipped it between a metal clip (really not the best ground but whatever).  Fired up almost immediately and shot a column of flame out of the carb.  That's different!  It certainly ran a LOT better in this admittedly poor configuration before the spark show that was the condenser arcing across the metal shield to the head ruined my fun lol.  I am going to put back the old coil and put condenser in the right place and see what's what.  I think we found the problem though... good thing I destroyed the old carb in the process :P. 

 

More to come!

[ebinmaine 63,091]

No worries. Learning process.

 

Glad to see you think you're headed the right direction.

 

I can remember back in the early 1990s when I had a nearly retired mechanic tell me that he used to clean spark plugs. At that point I had never heard of this. We had just been replacing them. More cost-effective. Same thing happened with points and condenser at some time or another.

until I got on redsquare a couple years ago I hadn't heard of anybody cleaning points in 25 or 30 years.

of course I understand the logic being that the older Kohler points were better quality than a newer replacements.

 

So, let us know how you make out and what old used so-called worn out Parts you put back on. I'll be curious.

 

[giantsean 59]

Soooooooooo..... fiddled some more.  Does it run better?  A little... you can tell it wants to.  Is it fixed?  No.  It appears that it's starving for air now... will not idle at idle setting (will stall eventually) and runs rough into full throttle where it bogs down.  Not hunting, just not smooth or fast.  When the muffler cools down a bit I'll take a shot at setting the governor again.  The seafoam gas has spent itself and it is on a fresh tank now, and the smoke is a little darker now, but it's obviously running pretty rich.

 

More Questions:

 

- for the gov setting per the manual... should you do it at WOT or closed?  The book is very unclear about this and the web says different things

- For the governor rod (the threaded one that pops on the throttle arm ball) what should I initially set that at?  Do you want it just touching the idle screw and then make it long enough to pop on?  Or is there some science to it?

- Any chance someone w/ a China #26 carb can pull out the high speed needle and see how many holes it has at the very tip?  I just have one (not straight through).  I have heard that opening or adding holes sometimes helps the China carbs run better, but figured I'd ask first to see if there was an actual problem. 

 

BTW the idle screw is pretty darned accessible once you slide the coil down enough to give yourself access lol.  the PO had it set up extremely high.

Edited July 22, 2019 by giantsean

[pfrederi 17,146]

Throttle setting is irrelevant for governor initial adjustment.  Try about 3 inches for governor to carb linkage

 

 

Edit;  Did you set the float in the new Chicom carb??

Edited July 22, 2019 by pfrederi

[giantsean 59]

36 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

Did you set the float in the new Chicom carb??

 

I did indeed.  First an update:

 

Did the governor adjustment, and left the rod at 3 inches where it was already.  So in a stunning about face, it will run - roughly) at WOT at about max 2200 RPM, but no longer wants to idle at all.  Less of a smoke-show but the left front tire which has not moved (next to the exhaust outlet) has a visible jet black spot of soot on it... probably a result of all the days testing, but I think it's still running rich.  

 

As for the float, again yes, but to Kohler spec (or at least level with the bowl).  I have since read that these china carb floats may need to be tweaked.  One thing I DID do that I'm wondering now if I shouldn't have, was to ditch the little spring-clip on the float needle (to hold it to the float I guess).  The old one didn't have one and it was just flopping around, so I figured one less thing to fall off and get stuck in something.  Not sure if that was a mistake but I can't see a need for it.

 

Starting to think this carb is now the biggest problem, unless there's a burnt or sticky valve or something.  However when it finds a sweet spot it will run well for several seconds, making me think it's fuel/air.  I'll lower the gap a bit too and see if it makes any difference.  The manual tells you both .020 and .035.... lovely.

[pfrederi 17,146]

Manual says .025 for magneto  .035  for battery  What manual says .020??

 

Low top end...Is the linkage hitting the high speed stop...had that been moved???

[rmaynard 14,888]

Any time I have had gas coming out of the throat of the carburetor I immediately think float valve. Carb is flooding. Black smoke, soot on plug, bad high speed running, flaming explosion out the exhaust...all symptoms. While you're at it, check the valve clearances.

[giantsean 59]

My bad....it does refer .020 as part of a troubleshooting step (can't see it now as I'm back outside, but I'll look it up later)

 

I'll check the high speed stop but it does not explain the rough running (inability to idle).  Would anything in the valve train (stuck, burnt, leaky seat) cause any of this?  Anything else on the chi-carb that I can tweak?

 

The other thing I noticed is every once in a while I'll see a bubble come through the line out of the fuel pump.  Would that have any bearing on anything?

[pacer 3,159]

3 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

Any time I have had gas coming out of the throat of the carburetor I immediately think float valve. Carb is flooding. Black smoke, soot on plug, bad high speed running, flaming explosion out the exhaust...all symptoms. While you're at it, check the valve clearances.

 

Well, I'm agreeing with maynard here:..... flooding. Black smoke, soot on plug, bad high speed running, flaming explosion out the exhaust... those sure are all float sticking indicators. I had one of the chicom carbs that came with a bad needle, I scrounged up one of my old ones and changed the needle out just to confirm and sure enough it cured it.

[giantsean 59]

7 hours ago, pacer said:

 

Well, I'm agreeing with maynard here:..... flooding. Black smoke, soot on plug, bad high speed running, flaming explosion out the exhaust... those sure are all float sticking indicators. I had one of the chicom carbs that came with a bad needle, I scrounged up one of my old ones and changed the needle out just to confirm and sure enough it cured it.

 

I had almost zero doubt that the chicom carb would cause me some sort of grief... debating whether to just get a good used OEM Kohler and be done with it.

 

I did mention on an earlier reply that I trashed the little clip on the float needle... would that (or maybe a bad float adjustment) cause the carb to flood?  The little spring seemed to only be there to allow the needle to not fall out (which maybe it did) - but you'd figure the tang would hold it in place

Edited July 23, 2019 by giantsean

[pacer 3,159]

The little clip is on one carb and not on the next, I wouldnt worry about it causing any of your probs.

 

With flooding the needle is not sealing off the fuel letting the pump just keep on 'flooding'. More commonly the needle will not seal at all and the engine wont even crank, less common is - possibly - yours might be a small leak letting too much in with some dripping down the throat of the carb.

 

If you havent changed out the needle that came in the chicom, do so.......

 

I'm feeling your pain with this, as I mentioned, that Onan had me so frustrated I had begun to consider changing out the engine!! But on the other hand this has been an interesting post with a lot of back and forth info/comments (One of the BIG reasons this site is SO GREAT!!) By the way, your descriptions of the symptoms and what you have done are a great help -- unlike "it wont run"

[giantsean 59]

 

4 hours ago, pacer said:

By the way, your descriptions of the symptoms and what you have done are a great help -- unlike "it wont run"

 

Well you know... it RUNS... sooooooooo

 

Yeah I know the frustration well.  The elation of thinking you have a fix and the crushing blow when it doesn't work, tempered by that 1% of the time when it does, further destroyed by the new problems that crop up.  It's like... I know I'm so close... so close.  I want so much for the carb to be the problem, but I fully expect that it will not be lol.  I went an Amazon'd a replacement one as it was only 13 bucks, but I think my best bet is to get a replacement jet and needles from Miller and just rebuild my OEM Kohler carb.  Maybe hit the bushings while I'm at it though they don't seem too bad (and lack of air is not my problem lol)

 

Sorry if this was covered but one observation... when I first got the chi-carb the float was hanging pretty low (not level while upside down as per Kohler spec).  Are they supposed to be adjusted the same way, or leave them alone?

[ebinmaine 63,091]

I'm no carburetor scientist but I'd put it to the same specs as Kohler carb

 

 

you may want to call Lincoln at A - Z and see about a rebuild kit for that thing.

 

I don't mean to steal business from wherever you're used to getting them but Lincoln treats me quite well.

 

[giantsean 59]

2 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

I'm no carburetor scientist but I'd put it to the same specs as Kohler carb

 

 

you may want to call Lincoln at A - Z and see about a rebuild kit for that thing.

 

I don't mean to steal business from wherever you're used to getting them but Lincoln treats me quite well.

 

I'm open.  Do you have a link to their site?  PM me if not appropriate to post in the thread

[ebinmaine 63,091]

Just now, giantsean said:

I'm open.  Do you have a link to their site?  PM me if not appropriate to post in the thread

He's one of our own vendors so you can just pop into the vendors section and find his phone number there.

He's a good dude and he's real busy.

don't be afraid to call him back a time or two within a day if you don't hear from him right away.

 

[giantsean 59]

Nice thanks!

 

So I pulled off the carb AGAIN to tighten up the little tang that holds in the float needle.  Good news is that the needle was still present (I was kinda hoping it fell out lol), bad news is that it's still running pretty much the same as before.  I attached a video of the beast at WOT to illustrate... somehow I stopped recording earlier than I wanted to but you can still see a spot where it starts to smooth out at like half throttle. 

 

Oh yes I also tried taking off the gov rod and opened the throttle by hand as far as it would go.  A few more revs but same lumpy running.  For fun I shot some compressed air into the carb and it smoothed out nice for like a half second before the expected gas bath.  That muffler is just waiting to make something explode

 

Tested the spark again w/ spark tester... fat and long and lovely (ok too much information lol).  Should be nice and strong.  Wondering if this carb is just not going to play ball.  I'll try the 13 dollar carb when it comes and see if it makes a lick of difference.  Beyond the carb, I'm stumped.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2019 by giantsean

[pfrederi 17,146]

What is the engine response if you have it running fast as it will and start to screw in the High speed needle??? Better worse or just dies....

[giantsean 59]

It will stumble a bit more and then die, in both directions.  It actually will not idle at all now (since the condenser fix / carb swap)

 

So was fiddling a bit and decided to compare old and new high speed needles and the jet (I only have the China jet though as the OEM was destroyed during extraction.  China needle is shorter with less, and smaller holes.  I'll see how the $13 one looks when it comes tomorrow.  Either way from my limited understanding, more holes = more fuel which is not what I need right now.

 

Is it odd that the governor arm seems to not be pulling at all at this point?  Or is it because the revs are too low.  I assume it's not making a difference at the moment as the engine runs the same with the rod disconnected.

 

 

[pfrederi 17,146]

While you wait it wouldn't hurt anything to readjust the float.  you have it at the Kohler spec 11/64" and your  carb is drowning...so change it to 3/8" or even 1/2" and see if anything changes.  (I use drill bits to measure the setting)