1984 C165 runs only when choked and erratic ammeter/voltmeter reading

[DaleLicht 6]

I have a 1984 c165 8 speed Tractor with a Kohler 16 HP single cylinder (model K341AS-Spec 71303a) motor. In the last few weeks I have been needing to choke the engine in order to keep it running, and it seems to be getting increasingly worse. I am also getting erratic ammeter/voltmeter readings. When the motor is running, the ammeter/voltmeter will be on zero and then jump up to 18 and then drop back to zero again. Not sure if this electrical or a fuel pump problem and i was finally unable to keep it running to mow the lawn yesterday and need some guidance to troubleshoot the problem. 

Thanks in advance!

 

[oldredrider 2,547]

1st, thoroughly clean the carburetor. That should fix your choke issue.

2nd, check your wiring connections at the meter. After confirming they are good, check all ground connections. Probably an easy fix. Time and weather have a way of deteriorating electrical stuff.

[DaleLicht 6]

Thank you I am on it. I replaced the carburetor, fuel lines and fuel filter last year. I will remove and clean and see what happens. The Ammeeter connections look good, can I bypass the ammeter to test it? I will remove and clean ground connections.

[pfrederi 17,145]

yes you can bypass the ammeter

[squonk 38,905]

If the meter goes up to 18 it sounds like it's a voltmeter. If it drops to 0 does the engine problem happen at the same time?  I had a c-145 with a bad main fuse holder that would drop out the entire electrical system erratically and make it seem like a fuel problem

[DaleLicht 6]

The problem is consistent and was not affected by the ammeter readings. I bypassed the ammeter and no change. I changed the fuel filter and made sure all the ground connections were clean and secure and no change. Checked the spark plug and it is clean and looks good. I cleaned the old carb in place and ordered a new carb because they cost about $20. I should have that on Monday and will do that next. I haven't inspected the points lately or changed coil and condenser,  I will put that on the list after the carb is changed. I thought that the fuel filter was going to be the problem, as it looked very dirty, but that didn't change anything. I also checked the fuel pump and gas is moving well through the lines to the carb. Any suggestions on the points, coil and condenser? To be continued......

[pfrederi 17,145]

To clarify  do you have an ammeter or volt meter?  If it was a volt meter and it dropped to zero there could be an electrical issue that drops the voltage so much the coil will not generate a good spark. engine starts to die if voltage comes back up engine may recover..  you may want to hook your multi meter to the + terminal of the coil and watch the voltage while running.  Should be well over 13 volts (13.5 -14 if your regulator is working correctly)

[DaleLicht 6]

I would guess I have an ammeter, since it says Amperes. Here is the picture. I will check the voltage at the coil.

[953 nut 51,630]

On 5/18/2019 at 10:39 AM, DaleLicht said:

will be on zero and then jump up to 18 and then drop back to zero again

That sounds a lot like a corroded ground at the Regulator/Rectifier. 

[DaleLicht 6]

Is the rectifier grounded to the chassis only with the mounting bolts? I did put the voltmeter on the coil and when the engine is running at full throttle it is only showing 5v DC on the multi meter.

[953 nut 51,630]

40 minutes ago, DaleLicht said:

rectifier grounded to the chassis only with the mounting bolts?

YES

Your coil "+" side should be receiving about 12 volts.

[DaleLicht 6]

So I removed the rectifier and found it to be in rough shape.See the pics.

Where should I get the replacement? $180 bucks on the internet is pretty pricey.

[bds1984 1,382]

A generic 3-prong regulator with a 15-amp capacity will work just fine.  I installed a generic unit on my C165 nearly five years ago and haven't had any issues to date.  

[DaleLicht 6]

I was able to find the exact replacement on Amazon for $30. The trick is to use the Kohler part number which is Kohler Part # 237335, and not the designated Toro Part # 101450. Hopefully this will fix the problem.

Thank you

[DaleLicht 6]

So the new regulator is installed and I still only have 5VDC at the coil while the engine is running at full throttle. Battery is good, all the ground connections have been cleaned and reattached. I am thinking points, coil and condenser are next? Suggestions?

[DaleLicht 6]

If I look at the wiring schematic, the 12v power to the coil is coming directly from the ignition switch, through the seat safety switch. I have bypassed the safety switch on the seat. Could the problem be the ignition switch itself or the bypassed seat safety switch? The only other thing would be bad wire.

Thank you

Edited May 23, 2019 by DaleLicht
mispelling

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,491]

Yes it could be. Add the pto switch to that list.

Here is a page that shows the terminal location on the ignition switch.

Check the voltage with the key ON and the engine not running.

The B, A, I and R terminals should have the same voltage as what is across the actual battery posts. Not the cables bolted to the battery.

If it is different somewhere follow it back to the battery to see where the voltage drop is.

Let us know what you find.

Click on the picture and again on the page that comes up.

Garry

[DaleLicht 6]

I checked the connection at the jumper where I bypassed the Seat safety switch and  it was barely attached, and I thought I had found the problem.  When I repaired the connection and tested the volatage it still was only 5v at the coil. I then tested the ignition switch as you suggested and found a full 12+ Volts at all the terminals with the key in the run position. I also tested the voltage at the PTO safety switch connector and full 12v there also. I am not sure how to test PTO Safety Switch. What is the procedure? It has to be that or a break in the wire from there up to the coil.

Thanks in advance

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,491]

Trying to find better info on your tractor.

Please post the numbers off the tractor ID plate to confirm I'm looking for the right thing. The type of voltage regulator you have has me questioning the tractor model number. How many wires go to the regulator - 2 or 3?

 

When you took the voltage measurements did you use the same ground connection for all of them? Perhaps when checking voltage at the coil (+) you are using the engine for a ground? Reason I ask is the engine sits on a shaker plate/rubber mounts so a ground cable goes from the plate to the tractor frame. The shaking can fray the wires in that jumper cable reducing the quality of the ground. Usually the first complaint is the starter won't work or weak but have seen stupider things happen. 

 

Best to take all measurements with the tester ground lead connected to the same battery (-) lug if you can. Not the cable but the actual battery post. This way you are also checking the ground connections and cables.

If the jumper cable is questionable see if you can move the battery ground cable from the frame to a starter mounting bolt. The starter is the largest load the battery will ever see. You still need a good jumper cable between the shaker plate and frame but now it is required for the rest of the tractor electrical loads which are smaller. The jumper could now be 10 gauge wire instead of battery cable size.

 

DELETED SOME 1984 INFO HERE

 

Don't forget to turn the key OFF.

 

Garry

[shallowwatersailor 3,213]

Run a separate ground wire from the engine to the chassis. You have a Black Hood with the rubber shaker plate engine mount. They are notorious for losing the ground.

[DaleLicht 6]

Gary,

The tractor ID # 01-16K801-15964 L55 

I believe the year is 1980 not 1984

 

Ground was at the battery terminal for all volt measurements and John from VA suggests I run a separate ground for the motor. I can try that this weekend. Unfortunately I have to work, and ruin all my fun.

Thanks!

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,491]

That helps. I thought there was a possibility it was not a 1984.

The build date L55 is 0155 Tuesday June 3, 1980.

 

This is the 104680 pto switch. 1/2 of the switch controls the starter circuit and the other 1/2 controls the ignition. Click on the picture

These diagrams will help

Garry

[DaleLicht 6]

16 hours ago, shallowwatersailor said:

Run a separate ground wire from the engine to the chassis. You have a Black Hood with the rubber shaker plate engine mount. They are notorious for losing the ground.

 

So where have you installed the ground wire on the block and chassis, and how did you attach it? Should I use a battery cable for the wiring, and can I hook it up to the ground nut on the solenoid?

Thanks!

[shallowwatersailor 3,213]

On 5/24/2019 at 11:22 PM, DaleLicht said:

 

So where have you installed the ground wire on the block and chassis, and how did you attach it? Should I use a battery cable for the wiring, and can I hook it up to the ground nut on the solenoid?

Thanks!

There is a heavy cable that is attached from the plate to the chassis. Sometimes that fails without being noticed. What I do is run a #12 wire from the engine to the frame or even to the battery.

[DaleLicht 6]

Happy Memorial Day Update: First of all I would like to thank all the Service Vets and their Families out there for your sacrifice.

I decided to take the voltmeter readings at the coil with the ground lead attached to the battery. With the key in the run position I am getting +12V at the Positive lead on the coil and also +12V at the negative lead of the coil. ????? should I get 12v at the negative lead of the coil? I think that rules out any wiring or switch problems at this point. I inspected the ground cable from the engine block to the chassis and it is in poor condition. I am going to remove it and clean it and reinstall it. I will replace it if necessary. The tractor is running better but the choke still needs to be applied intermittently to keep the tractor running and I seem to have a loss of some power. I am gonna order up a new $20 carburetor and change that out. To be continued.......

Thank you for the Support.......