1976 K341 Overhaul - Worth It or Not?

[HappyHillbilly 86]

Howdy, folks!

I've got a 1976 C160 Automatic with the K341 engine. Overall - tractor's in decent shape as far as chassis, body. 42" mower has some corrosion but I think it wouldn't take much to get into shape. Tractor hasn't ran in 10yrs.

Problem is that now my piston has stopped moving while trying to get it cranked after replacing carb, solenoid, coil, points, coil wire, plug, ignition switch, wire harness & oil change.

The piston was moving & I could hear it trying to fire for a few seconds after replacing carb & spraying starting fluid into carb. Pulled spark plug & it had some fluid (gas or starter fluid) on it along with a slight bit of rust. Left plug out & spun it over a few times & noticed the piston didn't move.

 

Main question is: Is it really worth the money & time for me to rebuild the engine? I'm not a collector & I'm on a tight budget, The only reason I started messing with it is because of the PTO & grader blade I got with it, and the fact that it belonged to my dad. After discovering that this thing has a build date of of 5 days before my 15th birthday kinda gave me a bit more incentive.

 

Q #2: If I were to rebuild the engine, any tips on removing the exhaust. As you can see in the photo, it's so corroded that I'm afraid to even touch it. Looks like I could get muffler off fairly easy, but would that be good enough if I were to have to have the cylinder honed/bored, or would the exhaust pipes be in the way?

 

Q #3: What's it worth in the condition it's in now & what could it be worth if I were to restore it (paint & all)??? OR - should I ask - what will you give me for it as it is? Haha!

 

Thank you for your time!

Have a good one!

HH

(Mike)

[Ed Kennell 35,764]

Sorry to hear the piston bone is no longer connected to the crank bone.       The C-160 auto is a very desirable tractor plus yours has a family history.   

I hope you decide to keep it and rebuild the engine.     The cost may seem high, but if it is done correctly, It will run for 40-50 more years.

The exhaust removal is easy...we can help you with that.

The value with a broken rod is  $100-$200 depending how long you want to wait for the right buyer.

Let us know what you decide.

[953 nut 51,653]

If you know that the transmission is in good condition then an engine rebuild would be a good investment. Sounds like this is going to be a labor of love and time is on your side. You could disassemble the engine and have the block and crank measured at a machine shop to see what needs to be done and what it will cost. Once you have that information you can decide what rout to take. If the cost seems too high a good running used Kohler could be installed or you could go to Harbor Freight and buy a new Predator engine. 

[ebinmaine 63,099]

3 hours ago, HappyHillbilly said:

Main question is: Is it really worth the money & time for me to rebuild the engine? I'm not a collector & I'm on a tight budget, The only reason I started messing with it is because of the PTO & grader blade I got with it, and the fact that it belonged to my dad. After discovering that this thing has a build date of of 5 days before my 15th birthday kinda gave me a bit more incentive.

 

Q #2: If I were to rebuild the engine, any tips on removing the exhaust. As you can see in the photo, it's so corroded that I'm afraid to even touch it. Looks like I could get muffler off fairly easy, but would that be good enough if I were to have to have the cylinder honed/bored, or would the exhaust pipes be in the way?

 

Q #3: What's it worth

#1. Most of us would say YES! It is worth taking the time to rebuild that particular engine. The c-160 and the k341 are  very highly desirable tractor and engine. 

Some of us Wheelhorse people would even go so far as to say that they are the Holy Grail of the brand.

The fact that you are not a collector of Wheelhorse as a tractor brand has really no bearing whatsoever on whether you should be restoring this tractor or not.

I started getting into this particular brand about 3 years ago and I've been nothing but extremely impressed ever since.

You have in your possession one of the most collectible and desirable and also CAPABLE tractors of it's vintage.

The fact that it is a family heirloom of sorts just increases the reasons why I would tell you that you should keep it and put the time and money into it over a long-term.

 

#2. Yes, you can remove the exhaust. They can be a bear but it is definitely possible.

Patience and great quality penetrating oil are your friend.

 

 

#3. The question of what's it worth is one that only you and a potential buyer can answer.

I think it's reasonable to say that most garden tractors are pretty difficult to get a profitable return from a sale after you put dozens or hundreds of hours and hundreds or more dollars into one during the restoration.

 

I personally would highly encourage you to keep that tractor and make it mechanically operable.

Use it for a while and then maybe think about doing the aesthetic restoration later.

 

 

 

 

[WHX?? 46,736]

Holy crappie EB that was well said and spoken lIke a tru addict... Seems like just yesterday you was  a greenhorn! 

[ebinmaine 63,099]

6 minutes ago, WHX22 said:

Holy crappie EB that was well said and spoken lIke a tru addict... Seems like just yesterday you was  a greenhorn! 

Hahahahahahahaha

 

Thanks Jim. I think. I'm pretty sure.

 

[953 nut 51,653]

4 hours ago, HappyHillbilly said:

any tips on removing the exhaust.

The best solution I have found is to take a Saws All and cut off the 45* fitting leaving as much pipe as you can. Once this is done take the Saws All and cut two slots close together in the pipe and carefully undercut them inside of the reducing bushing trying to not damage the threads in the bushing. After the two cuts have been made take a punch or chisel and collapse the pipe toward the center. Now the pipe will turn out of the fitting. It is one inch black iron pipe and can be found at Lowe's or HD.

[JCM 8,645]

That is exactly how to remove that muffler and associated piping,having been in the Plumbing&Heating trade for 43 years thats the best way to approach that, if you have access to a 1 inch NPT tap use that after the removal of the old nipple to chase the thread before installing the new one .      Good luck.

[Ed Kennell 35,764]

                                                    Easy Peasy.

    Being a lefty, I like to make the nipple splitting cut at the 10 o'clock location.   It makes it easier to hit the chisel instead of my fingers.

[953 nut 51,653]

11 minutes ago, JCM said:

if you have access to a 1 inch NPT tap use that after the removal of the old nipple to chase the thread before installing the new one

If you don't have the tap you can take an old piece of threaded pipe and "V-notch" the threads in a few places (just the threads, not the pipe) and run it in and out a few times to clean them up.

[roadapples 6,981]

Save that sweet 16....

[HappyHillbilly 86]

OK - after giving it quite a bit of thought and then reading all the replies, which happens to be the direction I was leaning towards - I've decided to go ahead and tear this tractor all the way down and completely restore it. It may take me a year or two and I seriously doubt I'd ever get all the money I'll have in it, especially not counting the time, but I'm at a point in my life where I could use a good "project". Might as well go ahead & go through everything else while I've got the motor off.

 

The tranny was working good 10yrs ago, but, so was the motor.   Haha! We'll find out later.

As for the engine, I'd prefer rebuilding rather than replacing because I'm a bit of a stickler about keeping as much of the tractor "original" as possible.

 

Thanks for the exhaust removal & thread cleaning tips.

 

Discovering the piston not moving after a long day of replacing parts, cleaning flywheel/stator, etc..., was quite disheartening, as I'm sure many of ya'll can relate. It's about as much of a let-down as when my high school sweetheart broke up with me.

Yeah, my heart's already in it & so is 100 bucks. What's another 900 bucks?!

 

Thanks, folks! I appreciate you all.

Later!

HH

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,495]

I don't think you can see the piston through the spark plug hole? Are you sure it is not moving?

If it is lacking compression you may have a valve that is not closing.

 

Garry

[clueless 2,898]

7 hours ago, HappyHillbilly said:

OK - after giving it quite a bit of thought and then reading all the replies, which happens to be the direction I was leaning towards - I've decided to go ahead and tear this tractor all the way down and completely restore it. It may take me a year or two and I seriously doubt I'd ever get all the money I'll have in it, especially not counting the time, but I'm at a point in my life where I could use a good "project". Might as well go ahead & go through everything else while I've got the motor off.

 

The tranny was working good 10yrs ago, but, so was the motor.   Haha! We'll find out later.

As for the engine, I'd prefer rebuilding rather than replacing because I'm a bit of a stickler about keeping as much of the tractor "original" as possible.

 

Thanks for the exhaust removal & thread cleaning tips.

 

Discovering the piston not moving after a long day of replacing parts, cleaning flywheel/stator, etc..., was quite disheartening, as I'm sure many of ya'll can relate. It's about as much of a let-down as when my high school sweetheart broke up with me.

Yeah, my heart's already in it & so is 100 bucks. What's another 900 bucks?!

 

Thanks, folks! I appreciate you all.

Later!

HH

I see your below the Mason Dixon Line. Down here those C160 auto are hard to come by, a running one in fair condition goes for $600.00 to 800.00. so if you end up putting $900 in it you got yourself a nice tractor, go for it. All the help you need is right here,and if you would like some information in person, your just over the hill from Richard in Franklin, he's one of the best.

[pacer 3,159]

8 hours ago, HappyHillbilly said:

doubt I'd ever get all the money I'll have in it, especially not counting the time, but I'm at a point in my life where I could use a good "project". Might as well go ahead & go through everything else while I've got the motor off.

 

 

Really glad to hear you're gonna 'jump in' and restore it. I agree that that the C160 is one of the top most desirable horses - and that 'tough as a boot' 16hp Kohler has to be one of the best single cyl out there!

 

And, you are right in saying its unlikely to get your money back. I usually keep a rough count of what I put into a refurb and of the 8-10 that I have done, on ONE I actually made about $50!! But, this is my 'hobby' - I dont fish, play golf, etc I just love to get out in my shop and 'get dirty' and my time does not come into the equation.

[Sarge 3,462]

As already said - the C-160 is a highly sought after machine and not just by WH collectors. When others see the brute strength and simplicity of this model - they buy it. It is not uncommon to see restored C-160 models go well above $1,000 if things are done correctly. Yes, that can be at or even slightly higher than what it takes to restore/rebuild one. I highly doubt anything serious could be wrong in that transmission - that model has about the toughest hydro ever made in it and nearly bulletproof. There is nothing on that tractor - inside or out, that has not been covered on this forum including the inside of the hydro unit. A good engine rebuilder and quality parts will put that monster back into service again and let it live another 30-50yrs easily if you use clean fuel (non-ethanol) and quality air-cooled engine oil. The one and only thing that can kill that engine permanently is running it on a side hill at a high angle - those engines are splash lube and that will starve the rod enough to cause it to break and knock a hole in the block. Some have been repaired, even after a catastrophic rod failure and live again - these engines are that tough. The torque curve on the large bore 16hp engine is extremely hard to replace - these are cast iron and use a very heavy rotating mass, no modern engines made today will match the K341's raw torque and grunt unless you swap to a larger diesel engine. 

 

The one biggest draw to the C-160 is this model's simplicity - no attachment takes more than a few minutes to install or remove. Minimal wiring, easy ignition system and easy to obtain parts - tough to beat it. The hydro drive unit will tow far more than the tractor can stop and with simple oil/filter changes will last a very, very long time. Even if parts break internally - the Sundstrand is not that hard to work on and there are excellent sources for replacement parts and rebuild services. Modern equipment in this size category is designed to be thrown away - the Wheel Horse can easily replace 10+ modern tractors over its lifetime and still be easily rebuilt. This is the reason you'll see so many restored/patina examples here that have been handed down through several generations - they outlive their owners easily. Considering that one belonged to your Dad - yeah, that's an easy decision and glad to hear you are going to put the effort into it. You won't regret it, and we're here to help.

 

Welcome aboard, btw.

 

Sarge

[peter lena 8,063]

i think that  clueless, has the right idea, contact Richard in Franklin, being close to you , he might be able to give you " options " to solve your problem. it would also depend on how fast you want to recover your horse. in addition we tend to put all the problems in one place, confusing the issue. if you can,t  rebuild your engine quickly, why not try for a used one to get you back in action?  that would let you use the tractor and correct any other issues you want to refresh. i hope you find an answer close by, that would help out, Pete   

[HappyHillbilly 86]

9 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

I don't think you can see the piston through the spark plug hole? Are you sure it is not moving?

If it is lacking compression you may have a valve that is not closing.

 

Garry

 

Garry - I think you've caught something I've missed.

Never assume someone, especially me, has got all his marbles together.

Saturday night was when I could hear it trying to fire & then noticed it stopped the "popping" noise. That night I searched the Kohler & WH service manuals for probable causes & make a checklist. Next day, thinking I might've flooded it, I tried cranking again. Nothing. First thing I did was check for air coming out of exhaust to make sure it wasn't clogged. Air pulsed out OK.

I pulled the spark plug and turned it over and noticed that what I thought was the piston did not move down and I know it was in the downward position when I put new plug in to begin with.

Hooked up my compression gauge and got zilch - even though I read in the manual about not getting a reliable reading due to valve design.

 

SO..., if I'm not mistaken, again, I could have an issue with a stuck intake valve.

 

"clueless" - Thanks for pointing out that Richard "953 nut" lives just an hour away. He may one day get you for that. Haha! Fortunately, I've got a good friend who's a mechanic & just recently got out of go-cart racing so I know he can help with info & tools, just not about particular WH info.

 

I'm not in a hurry to get this thing up & running. I was, because I was hoping it was just a few simple parts issue, but now that it's more than that I'll just set the cruise control on a little lower speed.

 

Again - thank you, all!

 

[953 nut 51,653]

8 hours ago, clueless said:

your just over the hill from Richard in Franklin

Chris, I guess you have never driven from Murphy to Franklin.     More like a couple of mountains, but if Mike needs a hand I could see taking an afternoon trip over.

[Ed Kennell 35,764]

You should definitely pull the head and do a dicarbon of the chamber.   At the same time pull the breather assembly to access the valve stems.    I have had valves simply stick in the guide and a simple spray of PB blaster and a few taps with a mallet fixed the problem.    I also have had valve spring keepers fall off causing a valve to hang open.  These are easy inexpensive repairs.

When you are ready, just shout and the experts will come to help.

[HappyHillbilly 86]

5 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Chris, I guess you have never driven from Murphy to Franklin.     More like a couple of mountains, but if Mike needs a hand I could see taking an afternoon trip over.

 

   Ain't that the truth! Actually, from my house, no matter what direction I go (Chattanooga, Knoxville, Atlanta, etc...), that trip to Franklin is the most treacherous as far as steep mountains go.

I sure do appreciate your willingness, Richard!!!   If you every head to Murphy give me a yell. I'm about 7 miles to the left where you dead-end into the 4-lane in Murphy.

[HappyHillbilly 86]

6 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

You should definitely pull the head and do a dicarbon of the chamber.   At the same time pull the breather assembly to access the valve stems.    I have had valves simply stick in the guide and a simple spray of PB blaster and a few taps with a mallet fixed the problem.    I also have had valve spring keepers fall off causing a valve to hang open.  These are easy inexpensive repairs.

When you are ready, just shout and the experts will come to help.

 

Yeah, I'm prepping for it now. Started to go ahead & order a gasket set but decided I'd better wait to make sure that all I need is a gasket set and not more complete kit.

And yes, I have to say that I'm quite impressed with the speedy & helpful replies and the abundance of them. This forum (you folks that make this forum) is awesome! Thanks!

[953 nut 51,653]

52 minutes ago, HappyHillbilly said:

Hooked up my compression gauge and got zilch - even though I read in the manual about not getting a reliable reading due to valve design.

The best engine condition evaluation is a leakdown test. Your friend who was doing carts may have the test equipment. This attachment will give you an idea of what is involved.

 

[The Tuul Crib 7,332]

22 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

#1. Most of us would say YES! It is worth taking the time to rebuild that particular engine. The c-160 and the k341 are  very highly desirable tractor and engine. 

Some of us Wheelhorse people would even go so far as to say that they are the Holy Grail of the brand.

The fact that you are not a collector of Wheelhorse as a tractor brand has really no bearing whatsoever on whether you should be restoring this tractor or not.

I started getting into this particular brand about 3 years ago and I've been nothing but extremely impressed ever since.

You have in your possession one of the most collectible and desirable and also CAPABLE tractors of it's vintage.

The fact that it is a family heirloom of sorts just increases the reasons why I would tell you that you should keep it and put the time and money into it over a long-term.

 

#2. Yes, you can remove the exhaust. They can be a bear but it is definitely possible.

Patience and great quality penetrating oil are your friend.

 

 

#3. The question of what's it worth is one that only you and a potential buyer can answer.

I think it's reasonable to say that most garden tractors are pretty difficult to get a profitable return from a sale after you put dozens or hundreds of hours and hundreds or more dollars into one during the restoration.

 

I personally would highly encourage you to keep that tractor and make it mechanically operable.

Use it for a while and then maybe think about doing the aesthetic restoration later.

 

 

 

 

[The Tuul Crib 7,332]

21 hours ago, WHX22 said:

Holy crappie EB that was well said and spoken lIke a tru addict... Seems like just yesterday you was  a greenhorn! 

No that’s called a wheelhorse junkie!!!

But that’s ....

   Ok !!   Eric we all are here for support!!