C-125 Fluids

[Jim anderson 77]

So I want to start with fresh lubricants so I have a good baseline for the recent acquisition.  The owners manual calls for engine oil of SAE 5W-20 or 5W-30 when operating below 32F, SAE 30 above 32F.  For the transmission on an 8 speed it is calling for SAE 140.  I know oils have changed since the manual was published, so i’m wondering if these are still the preferred types, or are people now running different grades or synthetics etc.  Basically my question would be:  what do the experts on this site recommend I be putting in the tractor?  Current use will be cold weather for plowing snow.  I appreciate the help in advance!

Jim

[WHX?? 46,729]

I would go with 5 or 10w-30 for snow work and 80/90 in the tranny. An eight speed I am guessing? Hey wait... snow work in CA??

[953 nut 51,630]

        If you are parking in a warm (above 32 degrees) garage I would stick with 30 weight motor oil. The 10 W 30 tends to lead to oil consumption.

Edited January 14, 2019 by 953 nut

[The Tuul Crib 7,332]

4 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

        If you are parking in a warm (above 32 degrees) garage I would stick with 30 weight motor oil. The 10 W 30 tends to lead to oil consumption.

[squonk 38,906]

I run synthetic 90 in my head drive Horsies. 

[Jim anderson 77]

Well, the horse does stay in the garage, however the outside temp has been dropping into the 20’s.  I’m guessing when I am running during the day we are usually above 32.  So I guess my choice is going to run straight 30 for the motor, and from what I’ve been reading, the 80-90 for the trans.  As for the question of snow here... 4500 feet elevation in the Sierra’s  Last snow was about 2 feet, a little over a week ago.  Next snow is coming in within 48 hours, up to 6 feet on the top of the peaks, not near so much here, but we still get it.  Pic of the last storm here:

[tunahead72 2,337]

Hey Jim, I'm puzzled about something in your first photo. The oil dipstick on my 1981 C-105 engine doesn't have a handle, it's just a screw-in plug with a measuring rod that reaches inside the engine.  I wonder if your engine has been modified, or replaced.  Does your engine rest on a cradle, with rubber isolation bumpers to reduce vibration, or is it mounted directly to the frame of the tractor?

 

This won't affect what weight of oil you put into it, but it could affect how much you need to do an oil change.  My K241AS Kohler engine has a smaller oil pan and only takes 1-1/2 quarts, while the K241S on my 310-8 takes 2-1/2 quarts.  I don't know for sure how much your K301 is supposed to take, you should check your manual if you have one, or download one from here.

[Jim anderson 77]

Tunahead72-  We’ll, I’m as big a newbie as one can be to this world, so I certainly don’t have the answer as to if the engine is new or a replacement.  Here is a pic on the front right side of the engine mounts.  Apparently I’m out of room to upload another pic of the rear mount, but it seems similar.  Looks to me like the engine is direct mount to the frame, I’d love to hear some of the experts chime in prior to my oil change.  The owners manual I got with the tractor calls for 1 1/2 quarts, so I figure I can start with that and if I come up short on the dipstick, just add a bit at a time until it reads full.

[roadapples 6,981]

That's a cradle mount..

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,491]

This link will get you to two pages from the lube chart. These contain the latest recommendations for lube so may be different than the operator manual. Click on the picture and again on the next page.

Garry

[tunahead72 2,337]

Yep, cradle mount, which is the way it would have come from the factory.  As opposed to what I was calling a direct mount, where the engine is bolted directly to the horizontal rails of the tractor frame, with no cradle or rubber bumpers.

 

So 1-1/2 quarts is the right capacity.  I usually start with a little less than that when I change the oil on my C-105, just in case I didn't get all the old oil drained out.  Then start it up and let it run for a few minutes to warm it up and let the oil circulate, and check for leaks.  Then let it cool down, and check the level and top up from there.

 

I'm still curious about the dipstick.  Can you send a photo of that when you get a chance?  If you hit a limit again trying to upload a photo, some kind soul here on the forum will probably suggest gently that you can become a Supporter for a small annual fee, and get unlimited uploads as one of the benefits.  That person wouldn't be me, of course. 

 

[Jim anderson 77]

Well tunahead, I took the gentle prod and became a supporter.  I know I’ve certainly spent money much more foolishly, and with all the knowledge and free support here I’m sure it is well spent!  To the previous subject, thanks for the advice on how much oil, and I am now able to post extra pic of the engine rear mount and oil dipstick as requested.  The 90 degree twist at the bott9m of the stick necessitates a 90 degree turn to finish inserting in the engine, but seems about as stock as can be.

[WHX?? 46,729]

14 hours ago, tunahead72 said:

it's just a screw-in plug

Sounds like you have an older motor Ed. Or maybe someone used an older block to replace a ventilated one??.  All of my k's have the plug dipstick but all are pre '68. even the 241's with the short base pans.  I'm thinkin sometime in the late 60's early 70's they did away with the plug style. If your dipstick is on the circle it's gotta be an older block. Get us a shot of your motor If you would. Does your C still have the shaker plate?

 

Thanks for becoming a supporter here Jim, helps keep the lights on and ad free.

Edited January 15, 2019 by WHX21

[bottjernat1 2,189]

This is always a hot debate. if all else fails just go with what the manual says. Me personally i live in northeast indiana and i use sae 30 for the motor all year round. my late dad always did and so i have! It has never failed us ever. my dad worked on these engines for many years and dad always told me even in the winter and even more so that engine is going to get hot it is air cooled and so useing sae 30 is only going to make a difference when you first start it up. after she warms up she will get just as hot as she would in summer. unless you live in antarctica. now i havent messed with transmissions to much i know i have in the manual tanny's use 80 90 seems to work good no issues there. i am still learning on the hydro tranny's. im going to flush my daughters 1969 charger automatic this coming spring from what ive seen so far sae 30 in it to so that is what i will use. unless someone on here highly recommends something else or a group of folks strongly say other wise and i get my mind changed. LOL

 

[pfrederi 17,146]

Straight 30 weight is going to be too heavy for your Sundstrand.  They originally used ATF (is your fluid red)  later they changed to 10w-30 motor oil.  When it is cold try pouring some ATF then some 10w-30 the some straight 30w.  First two are similar last one is not.

[Rideawaysenior 25]

pfrederi, Dusting off the old cap here, but if I recall, Wheel Horse switched to the Eaton hydro pump in the 80/81 with the black hoods. You are right with the Sundstrands, ATF all the way but with the Eatons, 10-w30 in all cases but below 32 degrees as there are components where that temp will make 10w30 too vicious and cause the pump to cavitate and not draw oil eventually causing premature wear.  My grandfather was a dealer from the early beginnings,  knew Cecil and Elmer Pond personally..  His dad opened the store in the mid 1800's and they started selling Wheel Horse in the early 50's.  They were one of the first in New England  He sold his hardware store and dealership in 1995 when he retired.  I recall his frustrations when Wheel Horse was transitioning from the two pumps.  No one liked it as much as the Sundstrand.  Eaton made a quality pump but it could not compare to the output in power, flow and pressure that the Sundstrand could produce.  Most homeowners would never see the difference, but some hard commercial users would notice.  Longevity wasn't there either.  Eaton made two versions.  the 700 and 1100.  The 1100 was the one with the hydro lift.  It had a charge pump on it as well as a filter.  The trans case acted as a reservoir as well keeping the pump cooler on the Eaton 1100.  Easiest way to tell which machine had the 1100 was to see if you had the hydraulic lift.  Very few had the 700.  Off the top of my head, the 312-A. 516-H and 518-H had the Eaton 700's.  If you look in the sales brochures, the tractors with the 700's were not recommended for heavy ground engaging work as the pump oil reservoir was a small plastic container that  held a limited amount of reserve oil and didn't offer the pump opportunity to adequately cool when working hard. 

 

Wheel Horse made some silly decisions over the years, in my honest opinion, that was one of them, however there is likely a sound reason as to why such as availability and expense which we just don't know.  I remember in the later years, my grandfather was still on the presidents council when Toro was scaling back the line and almost every dealer said if you want to keep the name alive, market two machines.  Market a hydro and a manual.  Make it a high HP machine such as the 416 to compete with the high HP big box market and the 5xi series that Toro was making.  What did Toro do?  Market a machine they labeled the Classic, ignoring what the customer was reporting to the dealer and the dealer to the manufacturer basically attributing to the end of the line.   

[Jim anderson 77]

Sorry but just looking for clarification.  The Sundstrand is only a hydro transmission, my manual 8 speed still is looking at 80-90 weight correct?

who manufactured the manual tranny’s?

 

Thanks

Jim

[tunahead72 2,337]

3 hours ago, WHX21 said:

Sounds like you have an older motor Ed. Or maybe someone used an older block to replace a ventilated one??.  All of my k's have the plug dipstick but all are pre '68. even the 241's with the short base pans.  I'm thinkin sometime in the late 60's early 70's they did away with the plug style. If your dipstick is on the circle it's gotta be an older block. Get us a shot of your motor If you would. Does your C still have the shaker plate?

 

 

That possibility never occurred to me @WHX21, but it is quite possible.  I bought this tractor in 2001 from a neighbor who used to work at one of the local Wheel Horse dealers.  He told me at the time that the engine had recently been rebuilt, but I didn't ask enough questions to learn exactly what that meant.  All I knew was that I trusted him, and the tractor and mower were in really good shape and reasonably priced, so I bought it.

 

My dipstick sits exactly where your circle is, and I do still have the shaker plate.  I'll try to get a photo tomorrow.  At some point I'll also look at a parts manual to see how closely this engine matches what was in there originally.

 

And @Jim anderson, thanks for the additional photos, and for becoming a Supporter.  I know you've only been here a short time, but it's clear you've already seen how valuable this place is.  Have fun with your tractor!

 

[pfrederi 17,146]

1 hour ago, Rideawaysenior said:

pfrederi, Dusting off the old cap here, but if I recall, Wheel Horse switched to the Eaton hydro pump in the 80/81 with the black hoods. You are right with the Sundstrands, ATF all the way but with the Eatons, 10-w30 in all cases but below 32 degrees as there are components where that temp will make 10w30 too vicious and cause the pump to cavitate and not draw oil eventually causing premature wear.  My grandfather was a dealer from the early beginnings,  knew Cecil and Elmer Pond personally..  His dad opened the store in the mid 1800's and they started selling Wheel Horse in the early 50's.  They were one of the first in New England  He sold his hardware store and dealership in 1995 when he retired.  I recall his frustrations when Wheel Horse was transitioning from the two pumps.  No one liked it as much as the Sundstrand.  Eaton made a quality pump but it could not compare to the output in power, flow and pressure that the Sundstrand could produce.  Most homeowners would never see the difference, but some hard commercial users would notice.  Longevity wasn't there either.  Eaton made two versions.  the 700 and 1100.  The 1100 was the one with the hydro lift.  It had a charge pump on it as well as a filter.  The trans case acted as a reservoir as well keeping the pump cooler on the Eaton 1100.  Easiest way to tell which machine had the 1100 was to see if you had the hydraulic lift.  Very few had the 700.  Off the top of my head, the 312-A. 516-H and 518-H had the Eaton 700's.  If you look in the sales brochures, the tractors with the 700's were not recommended for heavy ground engaging work as the pump oil reservoir was a small plastic container that  held a limited amount of reserve oil and didn't offer the pump opportunity to adequately cool when working hard. 

 

Wheel Horse made some silly decisions over the years, in my honest opinion, that was one of them, however there is likely a sound reason as to why such as availability and expense which we just don't know.  I remember in the later years, my grandfather was still on the presidents council when Toro was scaling back the line and almost every dealer said if you want to keep the name alive, market two machines.  Market a hydro and a manual.  Make it a high HP machine such as the 416 to compete with the high HP big box market and the 5xi series that Toro was making.  What did Toro do?  Market a machine they labeled the Classic, ignoring what the customer was reporting to the dealer and the dealer to the manufacturer basically attributing to the end of the line.   

 

 

But the decal on my 1974   D200  (sundstrand) clearly calls for 10w-30

[953 nut 51,630]

3 hours ago, Jim anderson said:

Sorry but just looking for clarification.  The Sundstrand is only a hydro transmission, my manual 8 speed still is looking at 80-90 weight correct?

who manufactured the manual tranny’s?

 

Thanks

Jim

Your 8 speed and all mechanical transmissions on horizontal shaft Wheel Horses were manufactured by Wheel Horse. Your manual transmission wants gear oil, 80-90.

[WHX?? 46,729]

Jim ....

Not to steal your thread here but yes Tuna would like to see your engine. Gotta be  a PO swapped blocks. Would be interesting to see where the points station should be. Points & plug dipsticks would have been long gone by the year of your tractor. Be interesting to see if ther is a blank off plate ther or what.

[Howie 882]

IN picture #8 one can see a points cover on the engine.

[Jim anderson 77]

WHX21- Now I just feel like I’m in bonus territory! The chance of getting extra info on my horse beyond the original intent.  Ok, if my engine is a reboot from a different tractor I’m sure someone can give me the rundown.  Here are additional pics, all 4 engine quadrants, and the serial plate.  Waiting to see what info shows up!

 

BTW:  This horse is starting to get expensive!  It is for my cabin and not my primary house.  So far on my list of tools for the horse:  welder, cutting wheel, air compressor, drill press, metal drill bits, vise grips, grease gun, and some small stuff.  All for fluids change, snow plow blade repair, plus tire leak fixes etc....  I always love a reason for new tools!!!!!

 

Jim

 

[tunahead72 2,337]

40 minutes ago, Howie said:

IN picture #8 one can see a points cover on the engine.

 

That's what mine looks like too.  In fact, @Jim anderson's engine looks almost exactly like mine, only difference I see right now is the dipstick.

 

Sorry, didn't mean to stomp on this thread. 

 

[WHX?? 46,729]

No no Tuna, Jim has got the info on what he needs to properly get the oil changed  on his horse. Aside from the guys who thought he might had a hydro instead of a gear jammer. Hopefully we got that cleared up! 

Jim your always in bonus territory and good company  around here when you want to learn about   ! You want to learn extra about yours you have certainly come to the right place!

Your tractor is correct it's Tuna's we suspect that may be awry. Sorry for the confusion....  Pics  Ed of that block!

Oh and BTW  Jim these tractors need not get expensive just for duties around the cabin. Your list of tools is not uncommon for folks here. You don't have to explain to us a reason for tools! 

Edited January 16, 2019 by WHX21