Charging wire thru ignition switch, why?

[Turtle 3]

Hi everyone, I’ve just joined this group and browsed many topics learning a whole bunch along the way.  I have a 414-8 which my dad and I bought in 1991. He got the Parts & Service Manual (which was his style) that shows on the cover 31-14K803 for the 414-8 so from the PartsTree website I see that it is a 1988 model. (I can’t read any of the labels on the tractor.)

 

Anyway I have a few questions about the electrical system that I’m sure many out there can clarify. I’ve studied the electrical diagrams and am very familiar with these thing as I was a boatbuilder for 40 years and did the design and installation on most of the boats we built. Not so much on tractors. 

1. Why does the charging output go thru the ignition switch?  From what I can tell the wire is grounded when the switch is off and while cranking and only connected to the battery in the run position. Why can’t that wire just go directly to the battery with a suitable fuse in the line?  Does it need to ground out during shutdown?

2. I believe there is a relay that grounds out the magneto when you turn the key off to stop the engine although it isn’t shown on the electrical diagram.  Couldn’t that just ground thru the ignition switch?  Is there a worry that the switch contacts would burn out?

 

I will leave it at that for now but I’m sure I’ll be back with more questions in the future. These forums are an amazing source of information. 

Thanks everyone,

 

[Achto 26,511]

23 minutes ago, Turtle said:

1. Why does the charging output go thru the ignition switch?

 

If you connect strait to the battery you will chance burning out your regulator. The charging wire does not get grounded, it simply gets disconnected from the battery when the switch is in the off position.

 

26 minutes ago, Turtle said:

2. I believe there is a relay that grounds out the magneto when you turn the key off to stop the engine although it isn’t shown on the electrical diagram.

 

I have not seen a relay used to ground the coil in the off position. Not saying that it has not or could not be used, I've just never seen this type of application. Usually one terminal on the switch will have continuity to ground in the off position and that is all that is used the ground out the magneto.

[WHX?? 46,707]

See if you can get any numbers off the engine that would help us confirm the year.

[KC9KAS 4,741]

@Turtle  to 

[953 nut 51,541]

5 hours ago, Turtle said:

1. Why does the charging output go thru the ignition switch?  From what I can tell the wire is grounded when the switch is off and while cranking and only connected to the battery in the run position. Why can’t that wire just go directly to the battery with a suitable fuse in the line?  Does it need to ground out during shutdown?

The charging system would create a parasitic drain on the battery if it was not disconnected with the engine not running. 

2. I believe there is a relay that grounds out the magneto when you turn the key off to stop the engine although it isn’t shown on the electrical diagram.  Couldn’t that just ground thru the ignition switch?  Is there a worry that the switch contacts would burn out?

There was a period of time where the ignition system transitioned from battery powered to magneto. The wiring systems and ignition switches were already set up for battery ignition (12 volts to the coil with key on) and using the relay allowed them to use up the ignition switches and wiring harnesses on hand. 

 

[Turtle 3]

My confusion on the grounding of the alternator output comes from the attached PDF file of the ignition switch. It shows terminal G+M+A connected when off. I believe I traced the wires correctly with G being ground, M being the mag and A being the alternator. That way when the key was turned off the mag would ground out, thru the relay (see the other attachment, I have one of those) and the alternator output would also ground out which puzzled me.  In the run position B+A+R are connected with B being the battery positive wire and A being the alternator output . Lastly B+S are connected with the key in the start position which connects the battery + to the starter solenoid. Everything made sense except grounding the alternator output on shutdown. Am I seeing things incorrectly?

I hope I got the attachments to work. 

Thanks to everyone. 

5264-switch-ignition-magneto-111215-replaced-by-103991-jpg 1014×522 pixels.pdf

[953 nut 51,541]

Here is the meaning of the letters on the 103991 switch.

G = Ground

B = Battery

A = Accessory (lights,hour meter etc.)

M = Magneto

R = Regulator/Rectifier (your charging system)

S = Start

 

[Turtle 3]

Got it. Thanks so much for the info. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,488]

The same relay was used in the low oil circuit which interrupts the power to the starter under low oil conditions.

This low oil circuit was only on the Kohler single cylinder models and started in 1986.

The 1986 models used the K-Series of engines with battery ignition.

The 1987 and later models used the M-Series of engines with magneto ignition.

 

If you ever need to remove the low oil switch for service follow the instructions to prevent breakage of the switch. It is no longer available.

 

Garry

[Turtle 3]

You guys are amazing, once again thanks for the info. I’ll look harder for for a model or serial number on the tractor and engine when I get home next week. Now you have really peaked my curiosity. 

[clueless 2,898]

I owned a 1989 414-8, and have a 1988 312-8. You tractor basically has three wiring systems not counting the lights. Ignition, charging and starting, Ignition is the mag, it's wired to the M on the switch, when the switch is on it's hot when off it's not, no relay switch . The relay switch is part of the starting system, if you go to the manual section here you will find the wiring diagram for you tractor.

[Turtle 3]

So here are some pictures with some more questions for those at Wheel Horse University.  First off there is a picture of the label on the Kohler engine showing it is an M Model.  Can anyone tell from the Spec # or Serial # the year of the tractor?

 

The photo of the wires show 5 wires coming from the engine into the connector plug.  The 2 red ones clearly go to the oil level sensor.  The separate white wire goes to the mag and I assume is the ground to shut down the engine.  The 2 that go into the insulation tube must go to the alternator which I understand is behind the flywheel.  One is white with some black spray paint on it and the other is all black.  Can I assume the white wire is the alternator output because that is what is the color labeled on the wiring diagram.  What is the black other wire?

 

Thanks once more,

 

 

 

 

[pfrederi 17,129]

1987 414-8

 

The two wires that go behind teh flywheel are the AC output form the stator and should get to the voltage regulator probably mounted in the blower housing up front.  There it is converted to DC and goes through one wire to the ignition switch

 

The Kohler manual clearly shows  your spec number had a regulated system.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by pfrederi

[bc.gold 3,399]

On 12/27/2018 at 12:16 PM, Turtle said:

Hi everyone, I’ve just joined this group and browsed many topics learning a whole bunch along the way.  I have a 414-8 which my dad and I bought in 1991. He got the Parts & Service Manual (which was his style) that shows on the cover 31-14K803 for the 414-8 so from the PartsTree website I see that it is a 1988 model. (I can’t read any of the labels on the tractor.)

 

Anyway I have a few questions about the electrical system that I’m sure many out there can clarify. I’ve studied the electrical diagrams and am very familiar with these thing as I was a boatbuilder for 40 years and did the design and installation on most of the boats we built. Not so much on tractors. 

1. Why does the charging output go thru the ignition switch?  From what I can tell the wire is grounded when the switch is off and while cranking and only connected to the battery in the run position. Why can’t that wire just go directly to the battery with a suitable fuse in the line?  Does it need to ground out during shutdown?

2. I believe there is a relay that grounds out the magneto when you turn the key off to stop the engine although it isn’t shown on the electrical diagram.  Couldn’t that just ground thru the ignition switch?  Is there a worry that the switch contacts would burn out?

 

I will leave it at that for now but I’m sure I’ll be back with more questions in the future. These forums are an amazing source of information. 

Thanks everyone,

 

In order for an alternator to begin charging the field needs to be excited, if your battery is completely dead an alternator will not charge it while a generator will.

 

Wire coming from ignition switch first excites the alernaor then completes the charging circuit, if left in the run position after shutting down the engine the battery would drain.

 

Bach when cars were all equipped with a generator and a standard transmission you could push start then with out even having a battery installed, there was one automatic that had a rear pump that you could also push start.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_start

Automatic or manual gearbox

A vehicle equipped with an automatic transmission (including semi automatic) is difficult to push start since selection of transmission gears is possible only when the internals of such a gearbox are rotating. However, automatics with both front and rear hydraulic pumps can be push-started with no problems. The last American automobile with this type of transmission was the 1969 Chevrolet Corvair with a Powerglide automatic.

Edited January 3, 2019 by bcgold

[pfrederi 17,129]

3 hours ago, bcgold said:

In order for an alternator to begin charging the field needs to be excited, if your battery is completely dead an alternator will not charge it while a generator will.

 

Wire coming from ignition switch first excites the alernaor then completes the charging circuit, if left in the run position after shutting down the engine the battery would drain.

 

Bach when cars were all equipped with a generator and a standard transmission you could push start then with out even having a battery installed, there was one automatic that had a rear pump that you could also push start.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_start

Automatic or manual gearbox

A vehicle equipped with an automatic transmission (including semi automatic) is difficult to push start since selection of transmission gears is possible only when the internals of such a gearbox are rotating. However, automatics with both front and rear hydraulic pumps can be push-started with no problems. The last American automobile with this type of transmission was the 1969 Chevrolet Corvair with a Powerglide automatic.

 

 

 

The stator of a Kohler will generate AC voltage when running regardless of the batteries state of charge or the functioning of the regulator. The question is does the regulator find it or know what to do with it.

 

 

[Turtle 3]

So I think you are saying that both of those wires go to the same terminal on the ignition switch that is connected to the battery (+) when the switch is in the RUN position.  When the switch is in the off position and the mag gets grounded they are both disconnected from the battery to prevent the battery from draining.

 

I knew that and should have have made the connection.  I'm a pilot and you can start my plane by swinging the prop (we have 2 magnetos and 2 spark plugs in each cylinder) but the alternator won't put out any power unless there is still something in the battery to get it started.

 

As usual thanks for the help.

[bc.gold 3,399]

26 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

 

 

 

The stator of a Kohler will generate AC voltage when running regardless of the batteries state of charge or the functioning of the regulator. The question is does the regulator find it or know what to do with it.

 

 

An oversight on my part forgetting the Kohler along with many other brands are equipped with a permanent magnet alternator. Should have remembered this as sometime ago had read an article where the magnets sometimes become unglued.

 

Flywheel Magnet Repair Kohler Command

https://www.lawnsite.com/threads/flywheel-magnet-repair-kohler-command.398206/

 

Edited January 4, 2019 by bcgold

[pfrederi 17,129]

10 minutes ago, Turtle said:

So I think you are saying that both of those wires go to the same terminal on the ignition switch that is connected to the battery (+) when the switch is in the RUN position.  When the switch is in the off position and the mag gets grounded they are both disconnected from the battery to prevent the battery from draining.

 

I knew that and should have have made the connection.  I'm a pilot and you can start my plane by swinging the prop (we have 2 magnetos and 2 spark plugs in each cylinder) but the alternator won't put out any power unless there is still something in the battery to get it started.

 

As usual thanks for the help.

NO they should go to the regulator.  are we sure something hasn't been changed on this motor???  Do your headlights work when the engine isn't running???  Maybe some one has changed to an unregulated system in the past.  Do you have a regulator on your engine (circled in picture??

[953 nut 51,541]

Here is a simplified wiring diagram that may help you understand where your wires should be going. As you can see the charging system is a stand alone system and is not dependent on the ignition system. Some of the components live in the same neighborhood but only interact at the key switch.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,488]

The 1987 414-8 model 31-14K802 using M14S-601524 should have the dual charging system with no voltage regulator.

The 1619102xxx 10-digit serial number was made in 1986 which is correct for early production 1987 tractors.

 

One stator lead has a diode in it near the connector that goes to the tractor wiring to rectify the AC current so DC current will charge the battery,

The second stator lead goes directly to the headlamp circuit. The bulbs will work on AC current but only with the engine running and the faster it runs the brighter the lights.

Click on the picture.

More on this model

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/search/?&q=31-14K802&type=downloads_file&search_and_or=or

 

Garry

[cleat 4,936]

36 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

The 1987 414-8 model 31-14K802 using M14S-601524 should have the dual charging system with no voltage regulator.

The 1619102xxx 10-digit serial number was made in 1986 which is correct for early production 1987 tractors.

 

One stator lead has a diode in it near the connector that goes to the tractor wiring to rectify the AC current so DC current will charge the battery,

The second stator lead goes directly to the headlamp circuit. The bulbs will work on AC current but only with the engine running and the faster it runs the brighter the lights.

Click on the picture.

More on this model

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/search/?&q=31-14K802&type=downloads_file&search_and_or=or

 

Garry

 

So long as there is a good diode installed properly inline then battery drain should not occur.

My Onan's are all wired direct to the battery through an inline fuse as the regulator itself prevents battery drain.

 

I just like to keep as much electrical load as possible off of the ignition switch.

 

I don't really like the headlights wired through the switch either.

 

Cleat

[pfrederi 17,129]

47 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

The 1987 414-8 model 31-14K802 using M14S-601524 should have the dual charging system with no voltage regulator.

The 1619102xxx 10-digit serial number was made in 1986 which is correct for early production 1987 tractors.

 

One stator lead has a diode in it near the connector that goes to the tractor wiring to rectify the AC current so DC current will charge the battery,

The second stator lead goes directly to the headlamp circuit. The bulbs will work on AC current but only with the engine running and the faster it runs the brighter the lights.

Click on the picture.

More on this model

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/search/?&q=31-14K802&type=downloads_file&search_and_or=or

 

Garry

 

 

Garry any ideas why the Kohler parts display for the Spec number pictured, 601524 (also listed as made for wheel horse)  shows a 15 amp stator and a regulator????

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,488]

Is this one different?

The illustration seems to show everything but the parts list only shows the parts used on this spec.

https://www.partstree.com/parts/kohler-engines/engines-horizontal/m14-601524-kohler-m14-engine-magnum-wheel-horse-14hp-10-5kw-specs-601500-601557/ignition-03070071262/

 

Garry

[clueless 2,898]

On 12/28/2018 at 11:25 AM, clueless said:

I owned a 1989 414-8, and have a 1988 312-8. You tractor basically has three wiring systems not counting the lights. Ignition, charging and starting, Ignition is the mag, it's wired to the M on the switch, when the switch is on it's hot when off it's not, no relay switch . The relay switch is part of the starting system, if you go to the manual section here you will find the wiring diagram for you tractor.

Looks like Garry, nailed it again. Please disregard what I posted .

[pfrederi 17,129]

1 hour ago, gwest_ca said:

Is this one different?

The illustration seems to show everything but the parts list only shows the parts used on this spec.

https://www.partstree.com/parts/kohler-engines/engines-horizontal/m14-601524-kohler-m14-engine-magnum-wheel-horse-14hp-10-5kw-specs-601500-601557/ignition-03070071262/

 

Garry

 

Garry You are correct...as usual.  I misread the Kohler page....