posi traction wheelhorse's

[stevasaurus 22,229]

On 12/25/2018 at 5:37 AM, Skipper said:

You can install the limited slip diff spring in the 8 pinion 1 1/8" transmissions as well. That is a stronger solution, and works on both hydro and manuals, as the diff part is the same.

 

Lowell would have all you need, spring and gaskets etc. When you have it apart, check bearings and bushings as well

 

 

Sorry...this is what the bet is all about, and this is what I am saying will not work.   Actually, I hope there is a way to make it happen, but that is not the bet.     The bet is off for anything other then this quote.  The ordered spring is a new spring.  Let me know if the bet is still on Richard.  I'm still OK with the snow and ice test against a tree...If both tires are not turning in the same direction on snow and ice...it is not working as a LS differential.

[AMC RULES 36,940]

 Don't let 'em get you Steve.  

[Skipper 1,788]

Just had the understanding that this was about making it work.............

[stevasaurus 22,229]

It is Skipper...the bet is about what I said would not work.  I did not make the bet...953Nut did.  You want to make a Limited Slip differential out of an 8 pinion differential???   Easy...Add 2 more pinions, take out the posts and put a cylindrical spring in the center.  Boom-Sha-Ka-Lac-A !!!    

Hey, you guys...don't lose your cent, since, sense of humor over this. 

Listen, we have soo many inventive people here, I don't doubt if we put our heads together, we could come up with something that would work...and the people we have here that have the skills to make parts could build a working model.  Don't you think the good people at Wheel Horse would have played with this idea also?

[953 nut 51,486]

3 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

The ordered spring is a new spring.  Let me know if the bet is still on Richard.  I'm still OK with the snow and ice test against a tree...If both tires are not turning in the same direction on snow and ice...it is not working as a LS differential

            That is what we have agreed on, I'm good with it.

[stevasaurus 22,229]

Consider this rambling for a minute...all of the Wheel Horse transmissions (and I am not talking Foote, Peerless or Eaton) were 4 pinion from 1958 to 1967.  In 1967, they came out with the #5060  ie...the 10 pinion LS in 3 of their models.  The 1st 8 pinion differential was the #5091 in 1974...some 8 years later.  It was pretty much a complete drop of the 10 pinion (except in some autos) to the 8 pinion that year...and beyond.  I'm just looking at this time line, and it tells me something.  Give it some thought. 

 

Richard...you posted while I was working on this post.   We have a bet !!!  good luck Mate.  

 

Just to be clear...one of us will owe @Cetan08 $25.  and one of us will owe the other one of us $25. 

[953 nut 51,486]

3 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Given that many things are prone to a certain issue...

What seems to go wrong with the 10 pinion?

 

I've read multiple times that the 8 pinion is stronger..... But why?

The end plates on the ten pinions were cast from aluminum, the eights were cast steel. The only time the spring and pinions are not stationary is when you are turning or loose traction. If one axle is turning at a a different speed than the other the spring will aid in having them retain the same speed. A true Posi Traction differential will just try a little harder.

[stevasaurus 22,229]

Look at that time line I posted in post #56.  The #5060 (1st 10 pinion) 1967 had aluminum plates.  The next generation #5071 1969 had steel end plates.  The #5073 1970 also had steel plates, plus that trans has a dip stick to check oil level.  1974 is the 1st 8 pinion differential...they had already been using steel plates.

 

   The bottom line...there is noting wrong with the 10 pinion LS trans.  Like any other trans, parts wear out.  The springs were the weak spot in this trans, but only after some 30 to 35 years of use.  My spring is not working like it used to either.    The 10 pinion LS was never going to stand up to the guys that made pullers out of their horses...that is why they like the 8 pinion manual transmissions.  BTW...the pullers can ruin them also. 

[953 nut 51,486]

1 hour ago, stevasaurus said:

My spring is not working like it used to either.

                                

[McGrew 460]

Eric asked what goes wrong with the 10 pinion LS differentials. I have no idea what the common failures are, but this is what i found when I opened up the 5073 in my 71 Raider 10:

 

 

I am certain it had never been opened up before, and mine had cast iron (steel?) end caps.  This tractor got a lot of hard use by my Dad (plowing) and other than needing new bearings, seals and the pinion carriers, everything else looked good.  FWIW, I drove the tractor for several hours before tearing into the trans, and never had a clue the diff was broke...  Danny

 

 

[953 nut 51,486]

7 hours ago, McGrew said:

drove the tractor for several hours before tearing into the trans, and never had a clue the diff was broke..

Looks like the Bull Gear was holding everything in place.

[McGrew 460]

953, Exactly!  The fit between the bull gear and the pinion carriers is incredibly tight.  When I purchased new ones I was surprised at how little clearance there was.  Danny

[Cetan08 311]

Looks like the issue is settled. pfrederi has a post that indicates he just recently tried it and it failed because the spring does not apply enough pressure on the pinions of the 8 pinion.

I guess a modified spring is in order.

[tntatro 168]

This is an interesting conversation, I'm trying to decide whether to make my next transmission rebuild with an 8 or 10 pinion. I did slip an old worn out spring in the 8 and poured some gear oil on it and tried turning the axles opposite directions with it loosely assembled and I could turn them. I'll try again with the new spring just to see how tight it is but will probably stick with the 10 pinion. I am curious how bad turning is with the differential locked, these would be very easy to lock by using an additional axle gear ground a little thinner. I have a Wheel Horse that is mainly used for pulling a dump cart and small logs and mowing areas that doesn't matter how it looks, just to keep from going to brush. Is a permanently locked differential a bad idea for a frequently used tractor that pulls stuff around? I know I always hated when I forgot to disengage my 4wd on my truck and then take a turn on pavement. Of course this tractor rarely sees pavement, just dirt trails, grass and a gravel driveway. Any opinions on a locked differential for a non mowing tractor? 

[ebinmaine 62,947]

4 hours ago, tntatro said:

opinions on a locked differential

I'm thinking it would put a fair amount of torsional twist type pressure on the diff/ axles. 

I have no asphalt and no lawn I care about but I haven't locked one yet because I do need the ability to turn tight corners in the forest.

 

[953 nut 51,486]

Something has to be able to slip to make a turn. The limited slip differential accomplishes this very well and weights can be added to the wheels for better traction. With a locked rear end the tires would have to do the slipping and that would be unpredictable depending on the surface. If you added wheel weights it would go in a straight line quite well but cornering would be an adventure.

[71_Bronco 1,072]

Very interesting thread. I just rebuilt a 5060, and found no damage except to the spring (shown below). Outside surface has grooves where it was sitting against the pinion gear teeth. It was still putting tension on the pinion gears, but I bought a new one just cause I was in there already.

 

I did notice the bull gear was quite snug on the P/N 7200 "body" that holds the pinions in place. I used a soft plastic dead blow and had to work it down slowly.

 

[stevasaurus 22,229]

I never did get that $25.00    

[tntatro 168]

I remember a long time ago a couple farmers told me that if you have a posi trac rear end and drive on a hillside horizontally then it will make the rear slide down the hill. I almost forgot about that. Between the turning and potential problems on hillsides I guess that locking it would be a bad idea. I'm actually pretty happy with my limited slip since putting wheel weights on. If I try pulling something too heavy then usually both wheels will still spin and dig a couple holes in the ground. It does look possible to add more tension to the spring and put it in an 8 pinion. It would be nice to have both the durability of the 8 pinion and have it a limited slip. I imagine someone who knows how to make springs like that could make a smaller weaker spring that could fit in the regular one to give a little more pressure, but maybe the 8 pinion design just isn't good for that application.

[ebinmaine 62,947]

4 minutes ago, tntatro said:

maybe the 8 pinion design just isn't good for that application

I don't have one right in front of me right now but if I remember correctly the eight pinions individually are set in more of a square or 2 offset squares and a round spring such as what is in the 10 pinion rear end wouldn't work.

 

I still do occasionally process the thought that limited slip or posi traction would be a good addition to any 8 speed.

This past winter Trina and I experimented with plowing the driveway using both of our horses.

 

Hers. 867 with limited slip. 100 lb cast iron weight in the rears. Nothing in the front. She herself is pretty small.

 

Mine. 74 c-160. Open diff 8-speed. Heavily weighted with fluid in all four tires. Me? Well, I'm literally two of her in poundage comparison.

 

Her issue was absolutely not drive traction. It was steering. We are going to remedy that by changing tires and adding weight to the front.

 

 

[71_Bronco 1,072]

I just remembered something.

 

The other day, I tried pulling an overgrown bush out of the ground with my Commando 8, with a 5053 trans. The back tires were on hard-packed dirt, and the hitch was strapped to the bush with a tug-strap.

 

I put the tractor in first, and tried to pull. Both tires spun and made divots in the dirt. I also tried with a little running start (only about a foot) and still spun both tires once I took up the slack.

 

Not sure what you call the differential in the 5053 and if it's considered a posi or not. Or if it was just the ground conditions that allowed both to spin.

 

Edit: looks like the 5053 has a "spur gear" differential

Edited July 7, 2020 by 71_Bronco

[tntatro 168]

Here are pictures of an 8 pinion and 10 pinion with a spring in them. If I loosely assemble the 8 pinion I can still turn the axles in opposite directions by hand, I can't do that with the 10 pinion even thought the spring is weak.

[953 nut 51,486]

On 7/6/2020 at 10:56 AM, stevasaurus said:

I never did get that $25.00    

I am in.  The spring has to be from a #5060, #5071, #5073...put it in an 8 speed...put the horse up against a tree (or another immovable object)  on snow or ice...take video of both tires moving in the same direction.  I will up the ante Richard.  Loser buys the spring and sends $25 to the winner...makes it $50.  The wager is about taking the spring from a 10 pinion differential and putting it into an 8 pinion differential and a video showing both tires moving in the same direction.  If this is OK...I am in.

Steve, I'm holding on to your $ 25.00 if you can show me the video. The post sort of died on the vine.

I have no doubt that Paul's test proved it won't work in an 8 pinion, but you stipulated there had to be video evidence.                    Next Big Show dinner at the Roadhouse is on me.   Having seen you eat it may cost more than $ 25.00 but that is OK.

[stevasaurus 22,229]

@953 nut      I'm just kidding Richard...it was not a fair bet.  I knew it would not work.     Another thing...I do not have the parts to make the video anymore.  I thought somebody else was going to make the video.

[oilwell1415 563]

18 hours ago, tntatro said:

Here are pictures of an 8 pinion and 10 pinion with a spring in them. If I loosely assemble the 8 pinion I can still turn the axles in opposite directions by hand, I can't do that with the 10 pinion even thought the spring is weak.

Quoted just to have the pics.....
 

I just read the entire thread.  The reason this works in the 10 pinion unit and not the 8 is just like was said early in the thread.  The gears in the 8 pinion unit run on shafts and the gears in the 10 pinion unit don't.  The reason you get LSD action from the 10 pinion unit is not the friction of the spring against the gears, it is the friction between the gears and the housing.  You don't have any of that in the 8 pinion unit.  The only friction there is from the shafts and that's not much.  In theory you could put a huge spring in there and generate enough friction to make it work, but a spring that large would probably cause it to wear out pretty quickly.