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ebinmaine

1267 ate a drive belt. Help with reasons?

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ebinmaine

Just For Kix I'll check Grainger to see if they have a 2.75 inch or 3 inch pulley. What size shaft is a 1967 12 horse Kohler?

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Racinbob

I just now saw this and am coming in kinda blind but a couple things stood out. Your 1267 should have a 5060 transmission (10 pinion 6-speed). If the brake band is mounted like your B/C series it's been swapped out. But I don't think that's your problem. I agree that the idler arm looks to be too far back. Your belt size is correct so, to me, it's gotta be in the pulley size or something is wrong with the idler arm linkage. The difference in the spring length you pictured shouldn't matter either and still wouldn't account for the idler arm position. I agree thet the little roller thingy by the input pulley is simply a spacer for the belt guard. I've done that on machines that have lost the welded on tab. :eusa-think:

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Pullstart

Since the engine and trans pulleys are in a fixed position and the tensioner pulley relies on, well, tension, linkage adjustment won’t affect the position of anything but the pedal and brake band... correct?  Possibly the engine has been moved back?  Belt guard from another tractor, or modified?  I’m with @wallfish, a shorter belt would be the only way to “move” the tensioner forward... shy of a larger pulley.

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ebinmaine
8 minutes ago, pullstart said:

Since the engine and trans pulleys are in a fixed position and the tensioner pulley relies on, well, tension, linkage adjustment won’t affect the position of anything but the pedal and brake band... correct?  Possibly the engine has been moved back?  Belt guard from another tractor, or modified?  I’m with @wallfish, a shorter belt would be the only way to “move” the tensioner forward... shy of a larger pulley.

I discovered last night after taking the brake and idler system apart that it has been changed and the effective length of the rods is longer the way it is. I don't have the correct brake band to use unless I take it off of the 867 which I might do. I would like to get it correct so that future repairs would be easier.

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Racinbob
11 minutes ago, pullstart said:

Since the engine and trans pulleys are in a fixed position and the tensioner pulley relies on, well, tension, linkage adjustment won’t affect the position of anything but the pedal and brake band... correct?  Possibly the engine has been moved back?  Belt guard from another tractor, or modified?  I’m with @wallfish, a shorter belt would be the only way to “move” the tensioner forward... shy of a larger pulley.

That's true. Regardless of the linkage being messed up that arm would have to be in that position to tension the belt. I would verify the pulley sizes and belt size. The 76" x 1/2" is correct but is it really that size? If everything is per factory sizing this shouldn't happen. I didn't think about the engine issue.

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ebinmaine
Just now, Racinbob said:

That's true. Regardless of the linkage being messed up that arm would have to be in that position to tension the belt. I would verify the pulley sizes and belt size. The 76" x 1/2" is correct but is it really that size? If everything is per factory sizing this shouldn't happen. I didn't think about the engine issue.

I don't have any way to measure a belt specifically but I do have three different belts from three different companies and they are all within a very very short length of each other if not exactly equal. So I have to assume that the 76 in is correct.

 

 

what I discovered about the brake system is that the band has been turned completely upside down which moves the rod to a completely different position which makes the clutch pedal go forward several inches.

It really makes a huge difference.

I thought I would be lucky to move it an inch or two. It went forward like 4 or 5 inch or more.

I'll try to remember to take some pictures but it might be a couple days before I can get back to this thing.

 

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Racinbob

There's something screwy going on but like @pullstart said, the idler arm would have to be in that position to take the slack out of the belt. What's going on with the other side wouldn't matter. I'll be looking for the pictures. I've never swapped a 6-speed for an 8 or vice versa but it shouldn't be difficult to get it right. :)

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Lee1977

Your going to need the tractor to push snow so the easiest thing would be to put every thing back as it was and get a belt guard from a C-Series.

 

SAM-0860.jpg

 

The belt guard is bigger at the back so the belt and idler won't hit. 

Edited by Lee1977

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gwest_ca

Here is what I have

1623 idler pulley 3-1/16 OD for 1/2" belt

6483 engine pulley 2-1/2" OD for 1-1/8" shaft

7232 transmission pulley 4" OD for a 1/2" belt and 5/8" shaft

 

Your's sound correct.

Garry

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ebinmaine
On 11/30/2018 at 7:47 AM, Lee1977 said:

Your going to need the tractor to push snow so the easiest thing would be to put every thing back as it was and get a belt guard from a C-Series.

I definitely do need to get it put back together to push snow but that's not a super emergency.

if I really needed to, I could swap the tires and plow back onto the Patriot horse for a little bit.

but I wouldn't even be likely to do that because I do have my big giant walk behind snowblower.

 

Trina and I both really do like the way the plow scrapes the driveway much cleaner than a snowblower can so it certainly is going to get put back together fairly soon.

 

In regard to the c series belt guard. It fits everywhere except at the engine pulley. I can't use that because it has spacing for a 4 inch engine pulley where this engine only has a two and a half and I need those fingers to be able to guide the belt.

 

Edited by ebinmaine

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Lee1977

A wire guide each side bolted to the engine will take care of that.

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gwest_ca

The bottom span of belt when tight is not going to change. Can you add a light gauge 1" x 1" angle to the inside of the guard about 1/4" below the belt when it is tight? The belt needs to land on it when loose. You could cut one side off the angle at the engine and let it extend to the far side of the engine pulley to replace the missing tab. Sounds like the guard you have will allow this.

Engine pulley for hydro model is 3-1/2" diameter so that may be where the guard came from.

 

Garry

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stevasaurus

Eric...post a couple pictures of the brake shaft side of your trans...including the brake drum and the fill plug.  See if you can see the casting date up by the shifter.  :)  This will tell us if you have the right or changed out trans...could be your problem.

 

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ebinmaine
4 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

Eric...post a couple pictures of the brake shaft side of your trans...including the brake drum and the fill plug.  See if you can see the casting date up by the shifter.  :)  This will tell us if you have the right or changed out trans...could be your problem.

 

 

Here's a couple pics.

I forget to get one of the fill plug.

 

ignore the fact that everything is undone. I was experimenting with how things would line up if I turned the brake drum upside down which I clearly cannot do.

 

Notice the casting number is not actually up by the shifter but right next to the brake drum.

 

I believe those numbers are 6941 and 0170. I actually had to stick the phone in behind the tire to get that picture.

Also notice the brake drum location.

It is in the next lower hole from where it is located on the 867.

Also notice the brake pull-rod. It is bent like a b or c series. I know this because I looked at the others. The 867 is straight.

 

IMG_20181130_165538645.jpg.74c066b5ee12d27de83ecb283bdadca4.jpg

 

IMG_20181130_165358642.jpg.92c5e0826b68f3b528e42e164fd43dcc.jpg

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stevasaurus

Well, that is definitely not a #5060 transmission.  #6941 is the part number for that half of the transmission case.  Don't quote me on the casting number in this case, but if it is Jan 1970, it should be a #5073.  The #5073 is an 8 speed, 10 pinion, limited slip and it should have a dip stick..  The brake drum is on the cluster gear shaft.  Your original transmission was switched out and because of where the brake drum is, your linkage has been modified to try to make it work.  If you have a 1" extension on that transmission where the fill plug is, it is a 10 pinion LS...but the #5073 may not have that feature.  I'm not sure.  The 6 speeds did have that feature.

   Short of tearing it down, you could put the front of your horse against a tree or fence post...put it into 1st gear and let out the clutch...do this on snow or ice.  If both wheels are spinning, it is a LS transmission.  :occasion-xmas:

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ebinmaine

@stevasaurus

Thanks for the above answer.

Once I get the drive belt to fully engage I'll try the spin traction test.

 

@Lee1977 I tried the belt guard from a C series and it just won't work.

The top is taller which is great but the bottom is also much larger and there's no way to hang it.

 

What I ended up doing is enlarge the hole on the side of the guard and raise the back end by putting a nut under the guard as a spacer. The clutch pulley is now clear of the guard.

 

I tried to find an engine pulley that was 2.75 or 3" diameter to make up a bit of the excessive belt length but couldn't find one locally.

 

I bought a belt that was 1" shorter.

Turns out it's a bit too much difference...... But the belts are 2 different brands.

@Racinbob

Dayco correct size is too long and Gates 1" short is waayy short.

I'll get a hold of a belt of the correct length of the Gates and see how it goes.

I cleaned the idler and trans pulleys but forgot to sand the engine pulley.

 

It runs and drives well enough to move in 1st and 2nd but 3rd slips pretty dramatically.

More to do Monday I suppose...

:handgestures-thumbupright:

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ebinmaine

@stevasaurus

@wallfish

@pfrederi

 

I spent some time today to remove and clean up the engine pulley as much as could be done to it.

Turns out it is too worn to use.

Also was quite a bit more rusty than I expected.

I ground down the rust and of course the belt was sitting even more deeply in the pulley.

The rear pulley on this tractor isn't right so I'm replacing all 3.

I've ordered a replacement 3" for the front and a 4" for the transmission, both 5L/ B groove size.

 

As for the brake/clutch linkage and rods... They too were ummmmmm

Mickey mouse engineered.

 

What was happening was the rod connecting the brake drum to the clutch/ pivot was too short.

When you push the clutch pedal on these models the brake is engaged as well. One motion.

Because of the brake rod being too short I had nowhere near the amount of free play I needed to set the park brake, and also the belt idler would not move down enough to allow the installation of the 1" shorter belt as discussed in previous posts.

 

I took a rod from a B/C series and straightened it in the vise.

Then using the old rod as a guide I bent the new longer rod to the right position.

 

It took a fair amount of experimentation to get the pedal in the right place and get the park brake adjusted.

 

Here's a couple of pics.

One showing the brake engaged. One not.

IMG_20181208_153128931.jpg.00d794230e024edae75cfacbcce150f8.jpg

 

IMG_20181208_153141611.jpg.5ff1bae76f3e7123d900f765f93b5e13.jpg

 

 

 

I also threw a set of used but better than what was there tie rods on.

 

IMG_20181208_105130310.jpg.86f981d0bd728697f99247eecab66507.jpg

 

 

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wallfish

You got a handle on it now! That brake band and linkage looks much better.

It certainly had a combination of different things creating the problem

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ebinmaine
3 minutes ago, wallfish said:

certainly had a combination of different things creating the problem

Boy did it ever !!!

 

 

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rjg854

good to hear you think you've got it figured out :thumbs2:

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ebinmaine

Got these in the mail today.

Installation attempt tomorrow.

 

IMG_20181215_160650744.jpg.32a3b62dba048b07752beb1e61ecbbaa.jpg

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Lee1977

Be careful I hear tell that those wild horses climb trees. He bought a C-175 a few years back I went up and checked it out to diagnose a charging problem. He need a new rectifier. Another neighbor said he had a few too many cool ones and climbed the only tree in his yard. I never got his side of the story.  

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ebinmaine

Well about a week ago I installed the three new pulleys and belt.

That turned out to have mixed results. I'm headed the right direction in that I can actually drive the tractor in 3rd gear now without slippage and I'm not smoking the belt anymore.

 

What I mean by mixed results is that I can only get belt increments of 1 inch and I think I need a half size.

I added this flange lip today...

IMG_20181223_122458911.jpg.77c1e5317d89ff0ce524362a615f478d.jpg

 

This is to support the top of the belt and keep it from sagging when I press the clutch pedal.

It does its job and it does help but I'm just not quite there yet.

The belt still doesn't quite come to a complete stop around the engine pulley so I can shift gears without grinding and crunching and other interesting noises.

I'm going to order a Gates belt in the same size as what I'm using because they are very slightly narrower & that may be just enough to get me to a point of being usable for plowing.

 

If not, I'll still be able to use the tractor for pulling heavy stuff around the property.

 

 

 

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ebinmaine

Made some great progress on the tractor this evening.

I installed the Gates belt and.......

 

It worked !!!!!

 

Push in clutch. Belt stops dead. Awesome.

 

I did have to fiddle around with the belt guard a bit more.

Remember all 3 pulleys have been changed and the belt is wider than the original.

I had spaced the guard out away from the frame so as to make space for the wider belt and pulleys. 

Some PO had bent up this belt guard pretty badly in the past.

I had to do some more straightening at the back by the transmission pulley.

 

Now we need a little snow... Testing time. 

 

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Sparky

About time.....

    Just kidding :lol:

Its always nice to get a problem fixed and behind ya.

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