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Achto

Engine goes under load then snubs out

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WHX??
2 hours ago, 953 nut said:

Probably not because it only happens when the regulator is connected.

Perhaps not,  maybe the extra couple of volts the reg is providing is making that happen?

 

Second thought the old defunct reg that was not providing a couple of extra volts was making it happen too. BUT maybe a guy should throw in a different switch just because we have them laying around. Might give some explanation as to it firing right back up after snubbing out? ? Standard five term switch Dan?

Edited by WHX21
nevermind

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Achto
1 hour ago, WHX21 said:

Standard five term switch Dan?

 

Yep, brand new switch was installed about 2 weeks ago, along with a new starter relay. Before I installed the switch I checked the placement of the terminals on it in comparison to the wires in the plug.  

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WHX??

So much for my :techie-idea::drool:

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Pullstart
19 hours ago, Achto said:

 

Yep, brand new switch was installed about 2 weeks ago, along with a new starter relay. Before I installed the switch I checked the placement of the terminals on it in comparison to the wires in the plug.  

 

Now it’s starting to sound like you’re just throwing parts at it!  :ychain:

 

I don’t have any sound advice, so I figured I’d be a smart ***.  :D

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WHX??
1 hour ago, pullstart said:

 

Now it’s starting to sound like you’re just throwing parts at it!  :ychain:



It needed a new switch and solenoid anyway

1 hour ago, pullstart said:

don’t have any sound advice, so I figured I’d be a smart ***.  :D

Some help you are! Fine be one ....and when we do finger it out we ain't gonna say what the problem was when it crops up on one of your tractors! :ychain:

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Pullstart
1 hour ago, WHX21 said:

It needed a new switch and solenoid anyway

Some help you are! Fine be one ....and when we do finger it out we ain't gonna say what the problem was when it crops up on one of your tractors! :ychain:

 

Sounds like it’s a pretty rare occurance, so odds are it will get me!  I’m paying better attention teachers!

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Achto

I had a little time to get back to this conundrum last night. I removed the fly wheel to do a visual inspection of the stator & the magnets on the flywheel. I also pulled the stator wires through the bearing plate to inspect them for damage. My results????? NOTHING :(. All looks as it should. I put every thing back together, plugged the regulator in & it charges at 14.3vdc. By this time it was dark already so I did not get a chance to drive it around to see if the issue remains. Took a couple pics, let me know if you see something that I might have missed.

IMG_20181029_170655851.jpg.3fb7cd765d3f26748332f9f8b17ed1e8.jpg

IMG_20181029_170709900_HDR.jpg.7ff762eb791af38a23884be868f8b901.jpg

 

Tonight (if the weather allows) I'm going to try @pfrederi's suggestion & isolate the ignition circuit to see if it still stalls out. Will probably run the ignition on a separate battery to make sure that the charging sys can't effect it.

 

   

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Achto

Back at the head scratching. For some reason I decided to take a look at the ignition coil & may have found the issue.

 

IMG_20181030_171555767_HDR-min.jpg.e46bc5cc1fec31eccb6c26bb34b76f6c.jpg

 

This could not be read while it was in the clamp. Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but this does not seam to be the right coil. Shouldn't it have a coil with an internal resistor when using a points ignition?

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Howie

I think it should have the internal resistor, but that one could be used with an external resistor. Think it is harder on points without the resistor.

Edited by Howie
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WHX??

Good point Howie but why? I always thought the condenser took the brunt of points open/closing off the points. My understanding is resistor loaded coils were used with later mag ignitions and trigger ignitions? I could be dead nuts & bolts wrong there tho.:)

 Truth be told fellas I am not too sure this is even an ignition related problem. But on the other hand why does it fire right back up after self shutdown. That's the kicker.

Have we ruled out a fuel supply related issued? Say the bowl runs empty but then somehow fills itself after shut down? Weird I know but just trying to to think outside the box here.

Correct me if wrong Dan but battery fired points ignition here right? I CRS....:lol:

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Howie

I am not sure on the why part but do remember that would happen on the 60's cars with point ignition and the wrong coil was used.

This ignition system is no different, operates the same.

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JimmyJam

:eusa-think::eusa-think:  Perplexing!! ?????

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953 nut

Eureka!   You solved the problem.

The external resistor on points ignition dates back to the mid '50s when 12 volt systems replaced 6 volt. The solenoid on all Ford products had a small "I" terminal that went to the coil to supply 12 volts while cranking and paralleled the wire from the run position on the ignition switch which had a resistor. GM and Mopar did similar things with two wires from the switch to the coil one of which went through a resistor for normal running, the other bypassed the resistor for starting.

Throw that coil in the trash and get a VW coil that has the internal resistor.

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Achto
9 hours ago, WHX21 said:

Correct me if wrong Dan but battery fired points ignition here right? I CRS....:lol:

 

Correct Jim.

 

9 hours ago, Howie said:

I think it should have the internal resistor, but that one could be used with an external resistor. Think it is harder on points without the resistor

 

Kind of wondering if this coil works fine at 12vdc but malfunctions once the battery voltage exceeds 13vdc. An external resistor would keep the voltage down to a usable level for the coil, or a coil with an internal resistor would also accomplish this same thing

 

Edited by Achto
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Achto
15 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Throw that coil in the trash and get a VW coil that has the internal resistor.

 

:lol: Thanks!! I'll throw a new coil on tonight & see what shakes out.

 

It is still really strange how the engine would seem to go under load before it snubbed out. Wondering if it may have been firing way too soon, causing severe pre-ignition?

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953 nut
1 hour ago, Achto said:

coil works fine at 12vdc but malfunctions once the battery voltage exceeds 13vdc. An external resistor would keep the voltage down to a usable level for the coil, or a coil with an internal resistor would also accomplish this same thing

Image result for bingo

It was probably heating up due to excessive current flow at twelve volts and higher voltage and resulting current flow pushed it over the edge. With a resister in line the coil will see about two amps of electrical flow, but without one it is doubled to four amps and with higher voltage applied it  would be two and a half to three times as much flow as it was designed to handle.

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WHX??

Sure gotta be ... that's why she ran with a faulty reg.... just running off the battery. Once the reg was replaced and the battery was seeing 13.5 + volts the coil was shutting down. I bet that is a coil a PO just had laying around and threw it on not knowing what we now know.

So the motor would fire right back up because the voltage dropped back down to regular battery voltage.

 

Are you saying Richard our coils have an internal resistor?

 

I got a bunch of coils laying around if you need one Dan... and if I can find them! :huh:

 

 

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pfrederi

Kohler Coils and for that matter " most" modern coils are internally resisted.  If not you need to use a ballast resistor (and since they have problems of their own i wouldn't recommend it by a correct coil.

 

They are usually marked like the picture above if they are not internally resisted.  also any coil marked 6 v can work with a 12 volt system but must have a ballast resistor.

Edited by pfrederi
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Achto

I stopped at the local Fleet Farm on my way home & purchased a Regitar RUC15 coil, sold there under the Calco name. This coil fits A LOT of different tractors and auto's. Surprisingly enough it was also the cheapest coil that they had (this is never my luck), all of the 6v coils were almost twice the price. To satisfy my curiosity I checked the resistance across the primary coil on both ignition coils. The coil that was on the tractor has 1.2 Ohms of resistance, the new coil has 2.7 Ohms of resistance. After the new coil was installed I put in about 30min of seat time. I'm happy to report that the tractor ran like a champ, not one hick up, miss or bogging issue the whole time.:greetings-clappingyellow: It also held a charging voltage of 14.3vdc.

 

Happy tractor - Happy boy!!:D I was so happy that I decide to make supper for the wife. After discovering that we were fresh out of Ramen noddles, this planned changed to going out. Took her to Mac & Don's Steak House & let her go nuts on the dollar menu.:lol:

 

Thanks so much for your help everybody!!!!

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WHX??

Mickey D's....now there's one for date night! :D

 

Thanks for what?... yer the one who figured it out!

 

Just goes to show when one gets a new to one basement bargain tractor ya gotta check out everything and be prepared for some surprises. Some as simple as the wrong coil some as cruel as a snapped rod. Ahhh the joys of the hobby!

 

Thanks for your help @953 nut ....I got some 953 parts with your name all over them! :)

 

Noted the PN on the coil Dan... still haven't found my coil stash... I have no idea where the missus put them! We find them going to BK to celebrate! :laughing-rolling:

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Achto
8 hours ago, WHX21 said:

Noted the PN on the coil

 

 That Regitar RUC15 is the info printed on the coil. The CALCO number on the package is C63112. To make it even easier it's the only one that they carry for under $20. 

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gwest_ca

An ignition coil is a simple step-up transformer.

You supply say 6 volts to the coil primary you get 16,000 to 19,000 volts supplied to the spark plug by the secondary windings.

You supply say 12 volts to the coil primary you get 32,000 to 38,000 volts supplied to the spark plug by the secondary windings.

That extra 16,000 to 19,000 volts will exceed the insulation properties of everything from the coil to the tip of the plug and leak out to ground at the first chance it gets.

 

When GM first brought out the HEI ignition we witnessed secondary voltage leaking to the primary and the voltage at the plug exceeded 120,000 volts. That is as high as our scope would measure. What prompted the investigation was a mechanic had a hole burnt into the center of a finger nail that looked like it had been done by a miniature oxy/acet cutting torch. Wonder it did not kill him.

 

Garry

 

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WHX??
3 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

Wonder it did not kill him

Interesting Garry, Most likely the secondary has  little amperage with that voltage. If a guy knew what the amp draw was on the primary it could be ciphered out.

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953 nut
2 hours ago, WHX21 said:

Interesting Garry, Most likely the secondary has  little amperage with that voltage. If a guy knew what the amp draw was on the primary it could be ciphered out.

The secondary is an instantiations discharge across an open air gap. Don't know if there would be any measurable amperage. Using some of Garry's numbers you have a 3,000 to 1 step up transformer with 6 volts at 2 amps +/- building a magnetic field that will result in an instantaneous discharge of 18,000 volts. Using Ohm's law and not deducting any losses that would be a momentary discharge current of 0.00066666 +/- amps.

My brain hurts, think I need to take a nap.       :ychain:

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cleat

I have had lots of high voltage shocks from spark plugs from cars, tractors, snowmobiles etc and while they get you attention I have never felt that I came close to death.

 

The one that did the most damage was from a TV I was working on. That one burned two holes into my palm and caused a little pain.

 

 

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