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Adapting a tiller

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DET

I have a 520xi with Kwik Way loader. I also have a model 7-1251 tiller. I am thinking of adapting the tiller to run off of the hydraulic pump that the FEL

uses by attaching a hydraulic motor to run the tiller gearbox. I am wondering if anyone has experience with this or has any ideas of what to look out for.

Thanks

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953 nut

I don't think the pump for a front end loader is a high enough volume to run a tiller. Perhaps @wallfish can chime in with an opinion.

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Skipper

How big is your pump, what pressure and rpm is it rated for, and what rpm do you intend to run it at. ? 

 

A few initial things to take into consideration: Speed you want the motor to run?, and how much hp you want to be able to feed the tiller?.

 

A rough ballpark figure just to get your thoughts going: 1gpm at 1500psi estimates about 1hp in a 1:1 senario. Some systems are more efficient, some are less. 

Edited by Skipper
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mmmmmdonuts

It might be. I know the green guys (JD) and I believe simplicity used a hydraulic motor for their tillers on some of their GTs. 

 

It will largely depend on the pump that you're using to drive the FEL currently. Most FEL pumps are somewhere in the 4-8 GPM so they may work especially considering people run tillers with 12hp tractors all the time so based on the rule of thumb it isn't too far off.

 

The pressure relief setting might have to be increased though to use the tiller vs the FEL.

 

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DET

With my pump not being original and not having a manual for the FEL that I have, I believe it’s at the 8 gpm range. I was wondering what the input RPM for the gearbox should be? I don’t really need a tiller but since I do have one just looking to see if I can make it work and the hydraulic motor, if it will work seems like the easiest way.

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wallfish

Love the idea of running it off hydraulics. Unfortunately I don't have any experience with hydraulic motors but a tiller doesn't spin at high rpm so there's certainly some room for mechanical advantage with a large pulley or sprocket on the tiller and a smaller one on the motor to help with the torque required. Not sure, but doubt your small pump will handle a direct drive hydraulic motor without using some kind of gearing down. 

 Check your spool valve for a power beyond port. If so, you can run another complete circuit off that port.

Interesting possibilities like mounting it to the FEL arms or even clamping it to the bucket. Or just mount to the rear to replace the weight box.

Maybe the tiller manual will give the rpm but you can also find it by measuring the size of the pulleys and use an online pulley size calculator to determine the rpm. Then use the calculator to size the pulley for the motor. Engine drive pulley should be 3600 rpm.

http://culvermotor.com/Engineering-Formulas/Pulley-and-RPM-Calculator.html

 

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Skipper

Or use a shaft coupler and run it direct without belts and pulleys. Just a matter of getting the right size motor to the pump. (if the pump is big enough)  Size should be stamped on it.

Edited by Skipper
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DET

I hadn’ t thought about hooking it up in the front.  Looks like I would have to turn the tines around or till with the tractor in reverse, which is totally do able. This is what I like about Red Square, so many skill sets and ideas. Need to do some figuring to see what I need for the hydraulic motor and go from there.

 I would like to thank everyone for their input and look forward to more to come.

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Mows4three

Hmmm.   Scary.    I've been seriously mulling this same scenario over in my mind. 

 

My plan was to build a 2" angle iron bracket on the front of my C-160 A to hold a 1-2 gallon fluid reservoir, then mount and and align a bracket for the hydraulic pump, driving it off of the clutch pulley of the engine. Like you, DET, I don't have enough experience to do this on my own so I will be reaching out to a friend who has more knowledge of hydraulics than me to figure out the details. 

 

I estimate that that once I get a handle on the GPM of the pump (thinking somewhere in the range of 6-8 GPM) and find a suitable source for the pump and motor (a GM power steering pump, take-offs from other pieces of equipment, purchases from Surplus Center or otherwise) I could plumb hoses from the pump and reservoir to a hydraulic motor and belt that would drive the tines.  I do know that tiller tines should move at right around 300 RPM.   If I calculate the sizes of the pulleys on the motor and the tiller just right, I should be able to throw some dirt around in my garden.  If a belt doesn't work to drive the tines I might need to use a chain and sprocket system, although the original Wheel Horse tiller just used a belt.

 

We should compare notes.   There are a couple other forums on the internet that address similar applications.  As with all forums, somebody is always ready to tell you how bad of an idea you have or why it's totally unsuited for your application.  Folks here on Red Square are usually not that way at all and can be quite helpful.  As for me, I tend to filter out naysayers and think like my granny.  She used to say: "It can't be that hard.  It might take a couple of runs to get up the hill, but you'll learn something every time you try."  

 

Good luck with your project!  Let's talk!

 

Dave

Latrobe, PA

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Mows4three

Wallfish:

 

Thanks for the info and posting the calculator link.   Really good stuff to know.  

 

Also like the idea idea that Someone threw out about puttin the tiller up front.    I would think with a hydraulic motor you could even plum a rear mounted tiller to run backward from its normal belt driven direction so you could keep it from pushing you forward.

 

Some very interesting possibilities with hydraulics.   

 

Regards all,

 

Dave

Edited by Mows4three

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DET

Dave,

 I have discussed this with a friend who is well versed in hydraulics. Once he has a chance to come up with a hydraulic motor with enough torq I will let you know. My pulley on the gearbox is 9” diameter and the gearbox has a 9:1 ratio.

 I am going to stick with a belt drive, with the tensioner pulley driving the gearbox shouldn’t be a problem. If it is I would switch to a cogged belt. I am leary of a chain and sprockets for the fact that if something gets bound up I would rather have to replace a belt than repair the gearbox or replace the hydraulic motor.

Doug

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Mows4three

Doug, 

 

Good point on not using the chains.  My suggestion came about because the better PTO powered 5' - 8' three-point tillers that I know of all use a direct gear driven power transfer to the tiller.   Makes sense at the Wheel Horse scale you need to allow some cushion for rough tilling conditions and debris and protect the equipment from snapping/bending/twisting/shearing.   You never know what is under your feet.  

 

After pulling brake linings, a steering wheel, shocks and a 12v generator out of my old garden, one of our long time neighbors told me I put the plot in where an old pig shed used to stand.  I asked him about the auto parts and he told me farmer Jone's two sons used to hot rod old cars in the pig shed once it was out of farm service.   I used to be able to grow really big carrots and potatoes down there.   Figures.....!

 

When you get your hydraulics needs calculated, give me a shout.   I'd love to discuss this topic more so I can fiddle on it over the fall.  Maybe even till some dirt over the winter if conditions are right.

 

Thanks Doug!

 

Dave

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DET

Dave,

my friend got done with his calculations and came up with the following 

Char Lynn hydraulic motor model 101-1704-009, 2.2 displacement eBay has a new “aftermarket for $140 + shipping 

the pulley on my tiller is 9” so I am going with a 6” on the motor, may have to adjust but I am going to start with that. Don’t know when I will get it done, hopefully by spring.

 I am taking walfishes suggestion and mounting it to the FEL. Since I am doing that and have an old snow plow I have decided to do the same with it. Once I get it painted I will try to get some pics.

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wallfish
1 hour ago, DET said:

 I am taking walfishes suggestion and mounting it to the FEL. Since I am doing that and have an old snow plow I have decided to do the same with it. Once I get it painted I will try to get some pics.

That tiller is going to be a cool useful tool when you get'r done.

Had a blade mounted on the FEL boom arms but didn't like how far out it was from the front, although it did a good job. I have some tight areas so turning it and leaving snow piles just made it kind of a pain. You can widen the blade up 60 inches as my 416 had no problem pushing one.

How about using that same hydraulic motor to power a rotary broom or snow blower on the end of the FEL too? That's a project which I never got around to trying. I did convert a walk behind rotary broom to fit on the front of a Wheel Horse but always thought it would be better on the FEL since they're so heavy.

If it was up to me, I'd have you building all kind of attachments! :lol:

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DET

Wow Wallfish, I am having enough trouble getting things done. I do appreciate the ideas though.

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DET

Finally got around to doing this.  Here are pics of what the almost final project will look like and a small area I tried it out on. I ended up with a 9" pulley on the motor. The tines aren't moving real fast but they do sure turn up the dirt.

If I don't hold down the brakes the tiller will move the tractor.  I do have a video of the unit running just can't figure out how to up load.

IMG_0405.JPG.4c627a285a7bd9f00f841a53c5295326.JPGIMG_0424.JPG.e86a8b8c418398adad1f7843bf739f32.JPG

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Tractorhead

Nice idea.

 

i have an older 4 stage gutbrod Tiller, that was original fitted with an older briggs 3 HP Engine.

This was driven by a Belt, so i thinkin also to use it with Hydraulics on my Horse because i retrofitted it with.

 

I like the idea how you made it.

 

👍

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Pullstart

Cool build!

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DET

Thanks guys

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