Still no spark

[Bucko 10]

I installed a new ignition coil, new points, and new condenser. Gaped the points to .020. Set the timing to between .077 to .080 BTDC.

 

Still no spark!!! Using the stupid method of holding the plug wire end in hand, I get a tingle, but it will not bridge a gap on the plug. I've tried grounding the spark plus base to three different spots on the engine, but nothing.

 

I have tried:

 

1)  Making the spark plug gap smaller, and larger, still no spark.

2) Installed plug in head, but engine does not start with gas in carb, nor a spray of starter fluid. No spark!

3) Removed ground wire from side circuit board that then connects tor starter switch; no spark!

 

I'm ready to toss this engine. Something as simple as no spark and replacing everything related to it, and no spark. The magnets on the flywheel are clean (sanded them sparkly clean with fine emery paper). 

 

Other possibilities:

1) Someone mentioned in another thread that the magnets could be the culprit...is a flywheel available for this H55 engine? It's the last thing that pertains to getting a spark I suppose.

2) Could the other two "charging coils" be somehow messing up or bleeding down the ignition coil? If so, I'll remove them, as I had planned to just use a battery tender to keep the battery charged.

3) I do not have a battery installed at this time, as I'm jumping the starter solinoid from a car battery to spin the starter. The ignition coil should not be part of this though I'd think.

 

So, is a flywheel available that would eliminate the magnets being weak, and therefore the ignition coil can't create a hot enough charge to jump the gap at the plug, yet give me a tingle when I hold the plug wire end?

[pfrederi 17,114]

Magnet test

 

 

[The Gman 476]

A high resistence somewhere in the path (mega ohms)might be draining the charge somewhat. Not likely but possible.

Another thought is if the magnets were at sometime loose and they were all removed and re-glued but shifted to the right or left. Could the induced charge in the coil then be advanced or retarded?

May be a retarded thought!

Has this engine run for you in the past?

I have an hh60 that sparked but was a faint yellow. Changing the coil gave me a nice blue spark. This was for a trigger pin ignition though.

[Bucko 10]

No apparent evidence that the magnets were removed, and the gap from the plate to the flywheel magnets cannot be set. The only item that was removed when I began my work on it was the ignition coil itself, so I figured for sure that was the problem. The previous owner (my friends grandfather) had removed the ignition coil for some reason, and I found an automotive coil and resistor mounted on the front tractor cover. No wires to it, but I can only suspect the grandfather perhaps had an automotive electronic ignition module at one time installed.

 

All that was removed, and as I mentioned in another post, a new ignition coil was installed, but no spark. Now, I've installed a new point, condenser, and yet another ignition coil (wico parts). 

 

I'll try the screwdriver test for a magnet check. If that does not prove anything, I'm stumped. I can't see that the opposite side coils would have anything to do with it, as they are just for creating a charge to keep the battery charged up...I think. Or could they some how effect the spark coil if they are shorted to the same plate that the ignition coil is on?

Edited July 27, 2018 by Bucko

[formariz 11,849]

     Is your magneto assembly wired as #1 or #2 ?

 

[Bucko 10]

As number two, as there is a single fuse on the circuit board that connects the two diodes together , which then connects to the battery. I cannot say for sure though if these "magneto alternator coils" are any good. Also not 100% sure of the two diodes on the circuit board either, although my ohm meter indicates each diode only has continuity in one direction (as this is how a diode is supposed to act). They also appear to be replacement diodes, as they fit as smaller ones in the clips that hold them. I was not worried about the charging circuit working though, as I intended to have the tractor's battery on a battery tender when parked in the garage. Is the charging system on this circuit board used in any way to supply voltage to the ignition coil? Does not look to be that way; seems to be that the magnets charge the ignition coil, and the opening of the points discharge this ignition coil to the spark plug. There is voltage here, as I can feel it, but not enough to jump any spark plug gap.

 

Currently, I do not have a battery installed; Instead I connect a set of jumper cables off of my truck. The negative jumper cable connects to the tractor's ground battery wire, and the positive jumper cable to the positive lead of the battery's cable.

 

I have not tested the magnets on the flywheel with the above post's mention of the screwdriver method (or any other method), but I have a feeling they may be weak. I can recall working on horizontal lawn mower engines where I sometimes "wrestle" with setting the magnet to magneto gap, as the magnets literally pull the magneto polls of the ignition coil to the magnets. On this engine though, there is no gap adjustment, so I never paid any attention to the strength of the magnets.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Bucko

[formariz 11,849]

I am a bit stumped with this one. Obviously this was a problem before you started with tractor hence the external coil you found. Probably the reason the tractor was put away. There may be the possibility that voltage is "escaping" some how or perhaps the is a slight grounding somewhere where it should not be. The next time you take it apart post good photos of the inside of flywheel and and of magneto as you have it installed. For the heck of it I would now install it as diagram #1. I have a feeling that there is a ground leak in there. Could also remove charging coils to explore all possibilities. I am not sure about magnets being weak. There is a possibility that the flywheel from an early H60 is the same.I will compare them once I open one of my H55s. I will open up one of mine and do some checking also  as far as continuity of grounds and charging coils go to see if we can come up with a reason for your problem. The whole magneto assembly may be the problem.

[The Gman 476]

Yes, a series of photos. The rectifier/fuse board and the wire setup under the flywheel. Also you could go right to the basics if not already tried.

You don't need the rectifier/fuse board in play.

Photograph it and remove it.

Take the kill wire out of the loop too.

Remove the gas line.

All you're left with is what the engine needs.

- coil/magnet to induce voltage.

- points to trigger ingition.

- get rid of the condenser/capacitor too.

Nothing else can effect the process.......... unless there is a high resistence bleed to ground.

Worth a try ???????

[Bucko 10]

53 minutes ago, The Gman said:

Yes, a series of photos. The rectifier/fuse board and the wire setup under the flywheel. Also you could go right to the basics if not already tried.

You don't need the rectifier/fuse board in play.

Photograph it and remove it.

Take the kill wire out of the loop too.

Remove the gas line.

All you're left with is what the engine needs.

- coil/magnet to induce voltage.

- points to trigger ingition.

- get rid of the condenser/capacitor too.

Nothing else can effect the process.......... unless there is a high resistence bleed to ground.

Worth a try ???????

Not sure why the gas line needs removing, as I'd need fuel.

 

I have removed the kill wire (wire from the point/condenser) to the circuit board, but that did not help. I removed the ground wire to the ignition switch too; that did not help. I will remove the two diodes and the master fuse and try that for kicks. If that does not work, I'll remove the entire circuit board, and try that. If any of these allow me to obtain a spark, then I woiuld just need to figure a way to ground the plug to shut off the engine. I suppose I can run the wire from the condenser/point straight to the ignition switch to kill it, eliminating the circuit board.

 

With two different ignition coils, two  different spark plugs, and two different points and condensers, I'd think I've eliminated those as culprits. It will give me a jolt/tingle in my hand when I hold the tip of the plug wire, but not jump a gap on the plug when its base is grounded to the cylinder head or bolts on the engine.

 

I'll take good pictures this weekend when I remove the side cover,  and flywheel so you all can see how I have wired it up.  I'll take a picture of the circuit board too.

 

I cannot wire it as "number 1", as one of the alternator magnetos has its two wires (very short) wired (soldered) over to its "partner" alternator magneto, and then that partner magneto has its two wires run to the circuit board as in the number 2 diagram. I have disconnected these wires from the circuit board as well, but it did not correct the no spark issue.I will see if those alternator magnetos can be removed from the assemble that the ignition coil is sharing with them. Never studied on how they mount. The ignition coil has an easy spring clip that allows it to be installed/removed. 

 

*** So what do the magnets do? Are they responsible in making the ignition coil discharge enough to bridge a spark across the spark plug? If then magnets are weak, would this cause a no spark to jump the gap? I ask because many have said they see a weak spark, and some say they have a nice fat spark. If the magnets are getting weak or are very weak, does this effect the ability of a spark? ***

 

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Bucko

[formariz 11,849]

Seems unlikely that problem is with magnets. I don't know what would make them weak. However don't ask me how, but I had magnets reverse their polarity in several different circumstances. If the flywheel from an h60 is the same you can try that change and see if the magnets are indeed the problem. I will check that since I have h60 flywheels. Hang in there with it. It has to eventually fire up.

 

The easy thing to do would of course get another engine for it, but you already have a lot of time and expense into it. It will fire you just have to stick with it. I am stubborn like that and would not give up.

[The Gman 476]

The magnets, magnetic field (flux) induces a charge in the primary windings which is then boosted in the secondary windings to generate high voltage. It's a step-up transformer. Lots of U-tube videos to be found that describe the process.

 

I'm curious what the air gap is between the coil's lamination and the magnets are. Can't be adjusted, I know... but what is it? Typically for those that are set they are 0.010".

[wallfish 15,870]

20 hours ago, Bucko said:

Are they responsible in making the ignition coil discharge enough to bridge a spark across the spark plug? If then magnets are weak, would this cause a no spark to jump the gap? I ask because many have said they see a weak spark, and some say they have a nice fat spark. If the magnets are getting weak or are very weak, does this effect the ability of a spark? ***

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) Yes

They're also responsible for charging coils as well

 

I've had 2 engines with weak magnets. Changed the flywheel and bang! Fired right off.

[formariz 11,849]

Did a bit of testing this morning. The flywheel from an early h60 is identical to the h55. Actually switched flywheel to the h55 and it works.

 

Tried do duplicate the theoretical situation where there may be a slight ground leak but I either have ground or i don't.

 

When you ground the end of spark plug wire to the engine block do you get a spark?

If so does it also spark grounded to the actual aluminum head? (not the bolts)

If the answer is yes to the above two questions and at this time you do not have another flywheel i know you don't want to hear it but personally i would try more spark plugs since they are easy to get.Perhaps remove one from a working mower if you have one. If that does not work I would then change the flywheel.

 

I don't think this came up before, but do you have an offset key at the flywheel?

[Bucko 10]

No offset key. I have not yet tried to position the tip of the plug wire to a bolt or head, but I can try that. I removed the flywheel to take pictures of everything. They are below.

 

I removed the charging coils as seen in the last picture, and their bracket from the main assembly, since I will not have a need for them (I will keep the battery charged using a battery tender when its not running). I also removed the circuit board, and created a new wire from the post that contains the condenser (black wire), ignition coil (blue wire) and points "post", and ran that directly to the ignition key start, so that it can still kill the ignition in the off position. I reassembled, and will test for spark once I get my jumper cables back from my son (hopefully Sunday), as its a whole lot easier to hold the spark plug base against ground (or the tip of the plug wire) while turning the key to engage the starter.

 

I also tried the screwdriver test while the flywheel was off; held on to the handle end top loosely, and lowered the screwdriver tip down to the magnets (one at a time). As I got within more than 3/4 of an inch, the magnets pulled the screwdriver easily.

 

I'm hoping that by removing the charging/alternator coils setup, this may resolve the issue of no spark. Those coils were in sorry looking condition.

 

And now pictures. First is flywheel. Next picture will show all coils; two at left are the charging/alternator coils, at right is a new ignition coil. Last picture is the charging/alternator coils removed, and I moved the ignition coils wires to the front. You can see that the screw post at the top center has the condenser (black wire), ignition coil (blue wire), and a green wire. The green wire runs straight to the ignition starter switch.  You can also make out the "plate" (has the two thin wires: copper and silver) from the ignition coil that is sandwiched between the upper black insulator plate and the housing (has small square bent tabs to hold the spacer in place).  

 

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Bucko

[Howie 882]

The charging coils have absolutely nothing to do with this engines firing. It needs to disregarded while trying to diagnosis this. It has to be in the coil, points and condenser. Magnets could be weak I suppose. A bad set of points, a bad condenser. Don't know if you have original Tecumseh parts or aftermarket stuff. Some of the aftermarket parts have not been able to get a spark.

[Bucko 10]

I agree Howie...I just figured that because they are in terrible shape, and their condition is unknown, and I will not need them, I removed them this round. For the record, Iin the past week I've tried two different points, two different capacitors, two spark plugs (J8 and J8C), and now two different ignition coils.

 

While staring at the TV tonight, I began to think about this more, and stared at picture 1 and 3 of post #14 that I placed. For those who have installed an ignition coil in this engine...the small copper and silver wire  from the ignition coil are soldered to a metal "plate" (this plate has a 3 small tangs to align it on a black insulator, and one of these tangs can be seen in photo 1 and 3). Currently, I have that "plate" sandwiched between the top black insulator and the metal casing (see last photo in post #14). Is this correct? Or should that plate be at the top of the top black insulator, where it would be touching the black wire of the capacitor and blue wire of the ignition coil?

 

The spring of the points has a long skinny bolt that runs through the lower black insulator, through the upper black insulator, and then the metal eyelets of the capacitor black wire and blue wire of the ignition coil are inserted, and a wire (in my case, a green one) that runs to the ignition switch (starter switch).

 

Could it be I have that metal "plate" that the skinny copper and silver wire from the ignition coil grounded incorrectly where it is currently installed, killing the spark? Can anyone verify where this "plate" is supposed to be located with respect to the black insulators?

Edited July 28, 2018 by Bucko

[formariz 11,849]

First thing I notice is that your flywheel is a bit different than what I have here. Yours has 10 magnets. All the ones I have here have 12.

Your flywheel key does not have a little offset like the one on my photos? That changes timing.

 

The bare wires on the replacement coil are grounds. You can try and move them to above insulator just for the heck of it but it should be touching the points' case metal as it states on instructions. On my photos from an unmolested one with original coil, that ground is on the screw holding condenser bracket, therefor grounding it. Within insulator should be condenser wire, coil wire and shorting wire going to diode board. I don't see your condenser but where ever it is , its case should be properly grounded so it amplifies the spark.

 

At this point we don't know how much has been changed previously on your engine but there is a possibility flywheel may not be original to it. Unfortunately the engine I have here that I am sure it's 100% original is in service on original tractor and I am reluctant to open it. I will try however tomorrow to change the coil on the others with the same replacement you have to make sure that coil works.

 

In your situation I would now that it is open, totally remove ignition shorting wire from insulator,make sure condenser is properly grounded, and try it again.If you are getting a spark although maybe weak when you ground the plug wire to the engine block without a plug, you have spark. I would then if it still does not fire a plug, try another plug first and then change flywheel if still a problem.

 

If you want I have flywheels here that I know work with that engine since i physically tried them. I keep all kinds of spare parts for everything I have specially that engine. I know how frustrating these things can be and you have already spent a substantial amount of time and money on that engine. Because of what it is it would be a shame to scrap it. If you want the flywheel you can have it for the shipping cost only. I only ask you that if it does not work for you that you return it back to me.

Flywheel offset key

 

Coil ground wire above

 

Above on insulator, condenser wire (red) coil wire(black with markings) and magneto kill wire.

Edited July 29, 2018 by formariz

[Howie 882]

I do not recall any of my H50 -H60's having an offset key. Just did one this spring. The ground wire from coil is usually on the screw that secures condenser. On bolt from points condenser wire, wire from coil and the kill switch wire. Nothing should be between insulator and the housing. If the bare wires from coil go there it will just ground the points.

[Bucko 10]

The condenser is on the back of the points housing.

 

This housing can rotate counter clockwise and clockwise, to set the opening of the points when the piston is at .070 to .080 BTDC), so I would not need an offset key. 

 

fomariz, my points housing does not resemble yours, as the location of you condenser is at the top of the housing and in clear view. Mine is in the back, and you can only see its black wire in my pictures.

 

My condenser's case is grounded by way of a half circle clamp that holds it to the back of the points case with a screw. Its black wire (in my pictures), is connected to the center screw that passes through the black insulators from the points spring.

 

The condenser (black wire), ignition coil (blue wire, see picture below) and kill switch wire (green wire in my arrangement), are all connected to this screw. So,I only need to figure out where the "plate" from the ignition coil that has a thin copper and thin silver color goes to (see picture below; plate is being pointed to by pencil).

 

"The ground wire from coil is usually on the screw that secures condenser"  Which coil wire are you referring to? I think both of these wires are too short get grounded at the condenser case and its clamp location.

 

I do not see this "plate" in any of the pictures that fomariz has posted. As fomariz describes, the instructions from the OEM and Wico box that I have state to place this plate to "bare leads behind insulator plate", but I don't understand fully what this means, as Howie there should be nothing in the way of the ignition coil on the points case, or it will ground the points.

 

See picture below for the "plate" I'm referring to. It is the one with the pencil pointing to it. Perhaps fomariz's engines never had the charging/alternator coils, making his points housing different from mine. Also curious as to his having a different count of magnets, but this too could be because of the charging/alternator coils.

 

So in closing, the wire at right (blue) is on the screw with the condenser black wire and kill switch wire (green for me). The two tiny wires at left on the "plate" are currently mounted on the points case, between the upper black plate.

 

Is this correct?

 

Thanks guys for your continuing help. I'm stumped on this one. I've done many ignition type repairs on previous coil type (magneto) ignitions, but this one is stumping me.

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Bucko

[Howie 882]

Have been thinking about what I posted above and I believe yours is different than the one here. Also different than the pictures above. What I said above does not apply to this one. That is why the flywheel is probably different.

[Bucko 10]

I believe now its either how the ignition coil's set of wires are connected. I believe I have the insulated (blue wire) correct with it going to the same location as the condenser and kill switch (points screw between the black spacers), but the plate with the two skinny wires, I'm not sure. I followed the instructions that came with the ignition coil and sandwiched it between the points housing and upper black spacer.

 

As I have stated several times, I can feel a decent tingle/shock if I hold the tip of the spark plug wire, but it apparently is not enough to bridge a spark plug gap when the plug is grounded.

 

Maybe the flywheel is incorrect as formariz states. His is a 12 magnet, and mine is a 10 magnet. Maybe 12 additional magnets are whats needed to create a larger charge in the ignition coil.

[formariz 11,849]

Here is how my testing went;

Replaced original coil with the new Wico replacement  same as the one you have. Somehow wires on it are a bit short to reach to points screw confortably. Positive wire reaches with a bit of difficulty. So, i decided to attach the two bare ground wires to the condenser ground (grounds onto laminations). Removed existing end and replaced it with a regular one. Put back flywheel. Not only I have a visible strong spark across spark plug,it is also noticeably audible with a great snapping sound.

Decided for the heck of it to remove condenser from system. Still get spark across spark plug but extremely weak. Repeated both tests with a different flywheel  on two different engines and results are the same.

 

So, i suggest that you attach the coil ground wires to a good ground on the laminations, although where it is on your photo it would be grounded. The end that came with it locks it in position not allowing it to touch the points stud. Placing it elsewhere eliminates any doubt. Make sure condenser is properly grounded. I would get another plug. I know you doubt it is the plug but believe me, I have had all kinds of weird things happen with spark plugs that just drove me nuts. Now there are always at least four extra ones for every type of engine in service here.

 

If still no good we'll try a different flywheel then.

[wallfish 15,870]

6 minutes ago, formariz said:

I know you doubt it is the plug but believe me, I have had all kinds of weird things happen with spark plugs that just drove me nuts. Now there are always at least four extra ones for every type of engine in service here.

Yup!

I effectively eliminated any more guessing of plug status by using an old Ohllson and rice 2 stroke engine to test them. This thing is a known good spark engine so it got mounted to the wall and now is a dedicated spark plug tester. Went nuts with 2 new plugs that were crap so vowed to never let that happen again. You can find an old weed wacker or chainsaw motor for cheap since it doesn't need to run, just have spark. Mount it up as a known good plug tester and you'll never have to question it again

[Lee1977 6,209]

First off those engine have less fire then Briggs and Kohlers. I was given a Troybilt tiller that they said it didn't have fire. My neighbor and I cleaned the carb. and it fired right up.

I have just the one Tecumesh and if it doesn't start the first thing I clean the carb. if that doesn't fix it I will look at something else. I believe it's an old Indian Curse, Tecumesh is still fighting.

[buckrancher 2,668]

check continuity of the spark plug wire installed on engine