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Bucko

Still no spark

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Bucko
20 hours ago, formariz said:

Here is how my testing went;

Replaced original coil with the new Wico replacement  same as the one you have. Somehow wires on it are a bit short to reach to points screw confortably. Positive wire reaches with a bit of difficulty. So, i decided to attach the two bare ground wires to the condenser ground (grounds onto laminations). Removed existing end and replaced it with a regular one. Put back flywheel. Not only I have a visible strong spark across spark plug,it is also noticeably audible with a great snapping sound.

Decided for the heck of it to remove condenser from system. Still get spark across spark plug but extremely weak. Repeated both tests with a different flywheel  on two different engines and results are the same.

 

So, i suggest that you attach the coil ground wires to a good ground on the laminations, although where it is on your photo it would be grounded. The end that came with it locks it in position not allowing it to touch the points stud. Placing it elsewhere eliminates any doubt. Make sure condenser is properly grounded. I would get another plug. I know you doubt it is the plug but believe me, I have had all kinds of weird things happen with spark plugs that just drove me nuts. Now there are always at least four extra ones for every type of engine in service here.

 

If still no good we'll try a different flywheel then.

I'll see if there is another location for the two tiny ground wires of the ignition coil. I will remove the spark plug from my running lawn mower and see if that gives me a spark. I'll let everyone know what happens.

 

 

 

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Bucko

Both plug wires have continuity (two different  ignition coils). Both also gave me "jolts" when I held the tips and the engine was turned over. 

 

I tried a spark plug from my working lawn mower (starts on first pull). No spark.

 

Last thing I did was to toss chicken bones at the engine, danced around the tractor and chanted "demons be gone". That too did not work, other then my neighbors staring at me in disbelief.

 

Out of ideas.

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formariz

Lets try a new flywheel then. Will be on its way tomorrow.

I think you had enough electrical jolts, careful or you will be walking around funny permanently.

Edited by formariz

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Bucko

It has been a few months since I last reported this issue. I had a death in the family that took time. After installing a 12 magnet flywheel, I still have no spark. I used two different plugs from engines that start, but still no spark.

 

To date, I have tried two different ignition coils, two different capacitors, two different points, removed the green ground shorting wire (to the switch to kill ignition when you want it to shut off), and still no spark.

 

I just can't understand how this simple arrangement of a magneto spark system is beating me.

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gwest_ca

Something you can try

Remove the blue wire from the post and see if you can get a 1 or 2 ohm reading between the blue wire and ground. That is the primary winding.

Remove the condenser wire from the post and put the blue back on.

Measure the resistance between the post and ground. With the points open you should get the same 1-2 ohm reading. With the points closed you should get 0 ohms. If it is not happening the points are not making electrical contact when closed. File the contact surfaces to remove any oxidation.

Some ohmeters won't register a 1-2 ohm reading accurately but if the reading changes to 0 and back to something is likely good enough for this exercise.

It is that switching back and forth that charges the secondary windings.

If the reading is a constant 0 ohms the circuit is shorted to ground somewhere.

 

While you are at it go a step further.

Measure the resistance of the spark plug wire to ground. Will be like 5000 ohms - a guess.

Now measure from the point post to the spark plug wire with the points open. Should be 5001 or 5002 ohms. You are measuring the resistance of both windings in series.

Keep the condenser wire disconnected for all of this as it will influence the results. 

 

Garry

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Bucko

Thanks! This is a new step to try, and I will perform these. I will report my results on Sunday night.

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ebinmaine

Thanks Garry

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Bucko
On 11/6/2018 at 8:23 AM, gwest_ca said:

Something you can try

Remove the blue wire from the post and see if you can get a 1 or 2 ohm reading between the blue wire and ground. That is the primary winding.

Remove the condenser wire from the post and put the blue back on.

Measure the resistance between the post and ground. With the points open you should get the same 1-2 ohm reading. With the points closed you should get 0 ohms. If it is not happening the points are not making electrical contact when closed. File the contact surfaces to remove any oxidation.

Some ohmeters won't register a 1-2 ohm reading accurately but if the reading changes to 0 and back to something is likely good enough for this exercise.

It is that switching back and forth that charges the secondary windings.

If the reading is a constant 0 ohms the circuit is shorted to ground somewhere.

 

While you are at it go a step further.

Measure the resistance of the spark plug wire to ground. Will be like 5000 ohms - a guess.

Now measure from the point post to the spark plug wire with the points open. Should be 5001 or 5002 ohms. You are measuring the resistance of both windings in series.

Keep the condenser wire disconnected for all of this as it will influence the results. 

 

Garry

Results

 

I have resistance (.6) from the ground and blue wire when blue wire removed from points post. Used a fluke meter.

 

When blue wire was re-installed and condenser wire removed, I found an issue. I would see infinite resistance with points closed and opened. I removed the points and benched tested. Got the same results. I tested the original points and got the same results. I looked at both sets of points and noticed that the brand new set had a dark grey coating. Filed them clean, and points showed continuity when closed. The original set were corroded, and when cleaned, they too showed good continuity. Re-tested using above procedure with condenser wire removed, and blue wire re-installed. Saw .6 ohms with points opened, and saw 0 ohms (continuity) when points were closed. 

Did not proceed to measuring the spark plug wire to ground, as finding that both sets of points having issues most likely kept the ignition coil from charging/discharging when these points opened/closed. 

 

HOWEVER...The points cam bushing (?) has broke, due to installing the flywheel and its key sliding back into this cam when I tightened the flywheel bolt. The picture is below. Where can I get one of these?

 

 

 

 

cam.jpg

Edited by Bucko

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gwest_ca

You have made great progress. Do you have the engine numbers so we can look to see what is available for the cam?

 

Garry

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Tractorhead

Additional, 

i have 2 issues to check for.

did you checked the ignition with disconnected capacitor?

 

As far as i read your measurement right, it seems to me, the condenser is faulty.

as i read from your posts you be able to see the contacts themself will be open and close while moving the crankshaft.

The condenser is for protect the contacts itself, that they last longer while prevents sparks at the contacts itself.

If the capacitor dry's ( because of age or whatever)  the value can drift and the frequency where it has to work will also drift.

the worst case is that it will be prevent the ignition, because it drops the voltage hop over the contacts too much.

so just a very weak voltage will be initiated, what is not enough for a good spark, but good enough you will feel it.

 

i had this issue once in a Motorcycle, witch don't want to fire up.

after i disconnect the capacitor, the engine gets a good spark and fires up immediately.

 

To try if a ingnition system works clean, i use a simple phase Auditor screwdriver and clamp it between ground and into sparkplug connector. With the small glimmer light inside the phase auditor, you can visually see, if the Spark itself will be strong enough.

Each brighter the glimmer light flashes, the better the spark shoud happen.

 

if you see a bright light while cranking, you got troubles with the timing.

 

if a dimmed light, you have to search between magnet, coil and contacts and capacitor.

 

so you can circle your error in a faster timeline.

 

Hope you can understand my worse description.

 

Stefan

 

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Bucko

Stefan, I understand you! I think the fault was the points being corroded. I saw no continuity when they were closed, instead, the ohm meter showed infinite resistance. This leads me to believe that the ignition coil would never actually have a chance to charge/discharge based on the points opening and closing.

 

I have the new points cam, and will be installing it this weekend (11-24). I have two capacitors, one is new old stock. Hopefully the corroded points were the issue.

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Bucko
On 11/14/2018 at 5:45 AM, gwest_ca said:

You have made great progress. Do you have the engine numbers so we can look to see what is available for the cam?

 

Garry

Member Formariz provided an Ebay link to one that was still available. As he put it, I was at the point of "hens teeth", and got lucky one was still available for a good price.

 

I sooooo want to hear this engine run!

 

Much thanks to everyones help in getting this 61 Wheel Horse running.

Edited by Bucko

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Jakeshorsetuff

I have seen people wire hour meters and amp meters to coils and that draws to much power from the coil and the engine won't start. when you said you get a little tingle holding the spark plug wire you may be getting weak spark because I get a jolt when I hold mine.

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953 nut

@Jakeshorsetuff, this is a magneto type ignition, not a battery powered ignition.    :bitch:

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WHNJ701

reading all this is really casting doubt when i start on my 551 if it's even worth messing with or just put a k91 in instead.

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Bucko
On 11/23/2018 at 10:21 PM, jabelman said:

reading all this is really casting doubt when i start on my 551 if it's even worth messing with or just put a k91 in instead.

Don't give up.

 

After installing the broken point cam, I checked, and double checked all the ignition parts. I then put the flywheel back on, placed the spark plug against a head bolt, turned the key to spin the engine, and saw a beautiful, fat spark. These engines will produce a fat, juicy spark with it all in great tune. To anyone who uses this thread for future reference, I timed this engine using the "nickle" trick. I placed a nickle on the piston, brought it up to its top dead center, both valves closed (compression stroke), and then slid the points assembly until the points just began to open. This aligned with a scribe mark that was on the points housing and engine casting, si I figured it was correct.

 

Screwed the plug in, spun the starter for about 15-20 seconds, and another 61 H55 Wheel horse roared to life!!! I looked pretty stupid I'm sure dancing around that tractor, but after all this time spent, and with all the help from this forum, we have another old gal running.

 

I do have one issue though...I have to apply a 1/3 pull of the choke to keep a good running engine. I'm positive this is due to the carb throttle shaft being worn. It has a lot of play to it, and this is letting unmetered air into the intake I'm sure. I've read threads where folks are using an aftermarket "overseas" carb, with good results. Anyone have a link or vendor that sells a replacement carb for this engine (1961 H55)?

Edited by Bucko
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ebinmaine

Fantastic job getting that thing running! That's a pretty awesome feeling.

At some point or another in the next few months I have a Tecumseh hh-60 that I need to go through a similar process.

 

Someone else will likely be along with a direct link for your replacement carburetor.

One thing to watch for with those is to make sure that the choke butterfly is push, pulled in the right direction.

 

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Bucko

Thanks! I know the choke is right; push in on the cable, and its wide open, as I have the air filter off, and can see the choke butterfly straight in the bore. It will die if I keep it this way after startup. The throttle shaft is very loose; it even vibrates when the engine is running, so I'm sure it has unmetered air getting through the shaft.

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Razorback

I understand the elation you felt when that engine roared to life. Same I felt when I was working on my 1966 Cub Cadet’s 12hp Kohler a couple of years ago. The final fix on mine was one of those overseas carbs. The old one had lots of slop in the throttle shaft, and I also noticed that a previous owner had bottomed out the needle and shut off the flow through it. Mine came with two different choke shafts to accommodate whichever type was needed.

 

might have also done a dance around the tractor!

 

Good luck with yours!

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Bucko

Thanks for the well wishes. I did do a dance, sort of...more like my hands above the air, with a big grin.

 

Now if I can find a carb...

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Bucko

In doing some searching, I have read that an H60 carb works on the H55D. If this is the case, I would buy one. However, it appears that the choke cable is not used on this H60 carb, as all pics of it show that it has a lever that you manually operate on the carb instead; no way to install the cable.

 

Is the H60 the replacement one that's used?

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oldredrider

You can drill a small hole in the choke lever arm on the carb to utilize the choke cable. Lever is soft metal so drilling is easy.

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formariz

Awesome. It pays not to give up.Specially with that engine that is so rare. Most are scrapped because people just don't understand them and its easier to just replace them.In my opinion it will never be a 1961 551 unless that engine is on it. Make sure you post video of it when you can.

 

Yes you can search for a H60 carburetor. They will work and most have the long choke lever that you can connect the cable to. However the absolute correct carburetor for that specific tractor is a Walbro LMG 157. The important difference between that one and all the other LMGs is that the 157 has the idle adjusting screw on the flywheel side making very easy to adjust while engine is running. All the others have it on the opposite side, obstructed by exhaust and guard making it extremely difficult to get to .In my opinion for now I would get a generic one from eBay, they are really cheap, but if you have the correct one I would definitely rebuild it and install a bushing in the throttle shaft and eventually put it back. I also like the fact that they have the old style bowl with the drain valve. Very convenient when storing tractor to drain carb completely. I also drain them every few weeks, removing sediment and any moisture that inevitably accumulates in bowl. I have now used my 551s for over 8 years without ever having to remove carburetors.They are extremely rare. I always look for them and only come across two ever both coming in my 551s both being still used in them.

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wallfish
6 hours ago, Bucko said:

In doing some searching, I have read that an H60 carb works on the H55D. If this is the case, I would buy one. However, it appears that the choke cable is not used on this H60 carb, as all pics of it show that it has a lever that you manually operate on the carb instead; no way to install the cable.

 

Is the H60 the replacement one that's used?

That lever with the little "arrow" on top should have a hole in it for the cable connection. If not, just drill one.

Yes, H60 carb.

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Bucko

This may not be the correct spot for this, but I thought I'd post a video (not great quality)  of the now running 1961 H55D Wheel Horse.

 

Much thanks to all. The back wheels will get painted, but the tractor itself will keep its patina.

 

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