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giantsean

D200 points rod issue

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giantsean

Hi All,

 

Spring has almost sprung here in the CT and I'm looking to revive my problematic D-200.  Among other issues, one major one is that I have not been able to get it to start since I parked it.  Decided to give it a go today and discovered she ain't giving no spark.  Went looking and ended up w/ taking off the points cover and noticing that the rod that actuates the points is not actually moving.  Starter cranks, flywheel turns (I hope - if it's attached to the hydro they are both turning).  From my limited knowledge of the big K's, a cam on the governor drives the rod.  Before I go pulling stuff apart, just wanted to get some ideas on what else I might look for / test / try first.

 

Side question - was having all sorts of smoking / overheating and other general noisy and unpleasant stuff happening while working it hard last fall (but at least it started).  Could this problem be a contributor to any of that or is it more an all or nothing proposition?  Worst case if it's the governor, are they available anymore?

 

Thx for any advice!

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gwest_ca

The push rods only move 1/50th of an inch for a very short time. Sure you did not miss it?

 

Garry

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giantsean
2 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

The push rods only move 1/50th of an inch for a very short time. Sure you did not miss it?

 

Garry

 

Not anymore :P  I'd better take another look.

 

there is a spark (on the points themselves) when I manually close and open - if I put a meter from the red wire to the condenser and ground, then crank, should I see a fluctuation?  Sorry for the stupid question I've done some small engine work but haven't dug into ignitions too much.

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gwest_ca

That is a smart question. Better to ask before than have to wait for the smoke to clear.

 

A volt meter should do it if you have battery ignition.

12 volt battery voltage when the points are open and 0 volts when they are closed.

The point gap could be too wide which alters the timing and could be what was happening last fall.

 

Garry

 

Not a clear day. The point gap may be too close. If it was too wide the points would not close.

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giantsean

So went out w/ a test light, found 12v at the red wire on the points with key in start (which I actually thought was the opposite of what's supposed to happen but I guess it's the ungrounding that breaks the field and let's go the spark).  I still cannot get it to flash but I may have been probing the wrong place (tried the contact on the ground side).  Still appears that rod is not moving at all.  I took off the points and cranked and looked and felt with my finger and to the extent the human body can see/feel a movement of 1/50th of an inch, at least this body can see or feel no evidence of this little guy moving at all.  If I let go of it it will eventually pop in and out but that's just because it has no resistance and the engine is moving.  I took off the little plug on the governor to see if the gear was turning, and it is.  So I'm stumped... could the cam have worn down to nothing?  Or broken or fallen off?

 

Addendum - went out and put it all back together.  I can see now how the points closing breaks the current to the red wire and so retargeted my probe.  Nevertheless, to get a light I had to manually open the points myself.  Cranking the engine does not affect it.  Grabbed a magnifying glass for good measure to ensure thing does not move, and it does not.  Coil also got very warm for what amounted to very little on time but maybe that's to be expected.  The pushrod, which by all accounts should slide right out, does slide but stops... so perhaps it's mushroomed or just stuck.  It does bottom out when you push it all the way in so you'd figure it would be moving, making me wonder what's going on w/ that cam.

Edited by giantsean

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Sarge

I'd start by downloading the engine manual for the K-482/532/ect - there is a whole section that covers that governor , points, and that rod . Go through the test procedures first - there can be other problems like being far enough out of time to the cam to cause this problem. You may have to remove that governor to get the rod out - you'll definitely need that manual. The big K twin opposed engines were some of the most rugged and best built engines Kohler ever made - its worth the time.
 

 

Sarge

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giantsean
2 hours ago, Sarge said:

I'd start by downloading the engine manual for the K-482/532/ect - there is a whole section that covers that governor , points, and that rod . Go through the test procedures first - there can be other problems like being far enough out of time to the cam to cause this problem. You may have to remove that governor to get the rod out - you'll definitely need that manual. The big K twin opposed engines were some of the most rugged and best built engines Kohler ever made - its worth the time.
 

 

Sarge

 

Thanks Sarge and no doubt... I fully intend to get it running.  I'm just worried about finding parts :P

 

I do in fact have the manual and found sections on ignition, setting points.  Have been struggling to find a lot of detail about the inner workings of the governor save for a large diagram of the externals.  Edit - read from the end and got back to the original section.  Not a ton about the rod itself but I found the timing procedure.

 

One more question - even if it is off on timing, would the cam hit the rod at some point in a complete turn?  Or do multiple things need to line up for this to work right?  

Edited by giantsean

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giantsean

Took some of the shrouds off, re-painted timing marks, spun-o-rama to watch and listen to what is going on. 

 

The points rod still does not move a hair, though I swear I feel a nudge and hear some faint noise inside, now that I know where to watch and listen.  

 

I am pretty convinced that all the weirdness I experienced last fall boils down to this.  From the mystery noise to the performance drop to the smokeshow (maybe one or more cylinders were just not firing?).  Anyway, from what I have found, governor parts are nigh impossible to find new.  Have seen some for sale on the Bay of E for 80-100.  Anyone thing at this point that buying one would be a bad idea?  I have no idea what to expect but I see there is a lot going on in these units - springs, weights, counterweights, to deal with advance.  Maybe something is stuck/gummy or maybe it's broke.  Worst case I could resell the spare I guess.

 

Now has anyone ever taken one apart? :P

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Sarge

I would think you'd have to find one used, plenty of broken engines out there with bad connecting rods. Might have to source the governor as a whole unit along with the rod - would make it easier. Try posting a wanted add for the parts you need - might take awhile but I'm sure someone has kept a blown engine around in hopes of fixing it some day...

 

I haven't had one fully apart yet, worked pretty deep into a K-532 years ago to change out a bad rod and one engine bearing, but that was a long time ago.

 

To read .050" lift, you'll need a dial indicator to really see/measure it.

 

Sarge

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giantsean

I don't know about you guys.. but I am beginning to suspect that perhaps this governor assembly might not be operating within design specification.  I've been wrong before though...

 

 

20180408_010917[1].jpg

20180408_011349[1].jpg

20180408_011826[1].jpg

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Sarge

Yeah - I'd say that's not within the original parameters of how it was designed to function, lol...looks like it exploded.

Amazing it ran at all prior, that's a lot of damage.

 

Sarge

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giantsean

Yep... and ironically after dumping out all the mangled guts, the points pushrod is very clearly and visibly working :P.  I even pulled out the dial indicator and found .0005 movement at best, so pulling it off was the next obvious step. 

 

It does make some sense now:

 

- Last fall - Engine under load, hear loud pop/bang, engine stumbles but keeps running at a lower RPM.  I HAD been working it pretty hard.

- Overheating, smokeshow, hard starting.  Limp it back to garage

- One more test start before winter - pass

- Jump to winter and I try to move it.. will not start at all - for a while it seems like it wants to (one or two detonations)

- Test a couple months later, results as posted in this thread

 

I am guessing what happened is the bang was the unit shredding, the rest from loss of advance.  The variable start from crud jamming up the mechanism, perhaps getting worse over time due to settling, until the pushrod would no longer actuate.

 

I will change the oil (hopefully my testing did not distribute too many metal particles) and rebuild the carb anyway, but for now it seems the mystery is solved.  I sourced a used governor from the Bay for 75 bucks, and I will keep whatever parts of mine survived for later.  Might be worth picking up one more spare just in case, and a new set of points to boot.

 

Sincere thanks for everyone's help!  On my way to becoming the K-series governor guru! :P

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