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jebbear

My 856 Project

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Ed Kennell

Would drilling another hole in the axle gusset  give enough clearance?   Looks like you could move the axle end of the spring inboard about 1/2" and up 1/4" by drilling a new hole.

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Stormin

  I've just refitted that spring to my C-125. With no drive belt on it does touch the brake band. Pushing the jockey wheel forward as if belt fitted, the spring clears the brake band.

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jebbear

Thanks for all of the suggestions on this brake/spring dilemma, but after studying this thing for a lot longer than it was really worth, I just decided to take my own advice and went ahead and hooked the :orcs-censored: thing up. Couldn't really come up with any novel ideas that would greatly improve it, so its just going to have to rub a little bit. I guess good enough for the Wheel Horse engineers, good enough for me.

DSC_1397r.jpg.01ea40bcd193b3087711b5b9c9f2301a.jpg

 

Anyway, moving right along, resumed putting a few more pieces on. Got the dash panel mounted (thanks @Vinylguy for the quality decals) and started into the wiring and control linkages.

DSC_1398r.jpg.554272655c2b9120962e41f5350a3679.jpgDSC_1399r.jpg.947394e243ceca773fb6fc4c472c3079.jpg

Everyone will probably notice that I am VERY meticulous and organized with my tools and keep everything neat and in its place while the madman is at work! (Not!!). :laughing-jumpingpurple:

 

As I mentioned in the other post that I started under "Electrical" topics  https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/78205-adding-a-fuse-to-startergenerator-circuit/  I have decided to incorporate the modifications as discussed, specifically adding the 60 amp fuse to the battery circuit (thanks @953 nut) and the 20 amp fuse in the regulator wiring (thanks @pfrederi). Both I think are GREAT ideas since this tractor didn't have any safeguards originally installed from the factory. Hopefully now I won't burn up another starter/generator and regulator.

The only thing I didn't anticipate was how complicated this little job would end up being. Allow me to rephrase that, the modifications weren't complicated, but trying to compile and find all of the necessary components was a real challenge. I just falsely assumed that a trip to my local automotive and hardware stores would be all that it would take, I would buy what I needed and come home and put a new harness together. But was I ever wrong. Why are there no REAL HARDWARE stores anymore? Back in the day when I was a youngster, I worked at a local hardware store. I always said back then if we didn't have it in the store, nobody made it. Times have sure changed. Anyway, I'll jump down off of my :angry-soapbox: and hopefully get back on topic. I will say that the local NAPA store at least got me started as I wait for the other stuff to come in from the on-line orders.

 

So while I wait to get my new wiring harness assembled, I did come up with a couple of new questions that maybe you guys can help me with. I don't think these are mind boggling or move the earth questions, but rather just a couple of things that I would like to clarify. Just attention to details. I attempted to look at numerous photos of of many of your various tractors on the site, but they are a little difficult to see the details. For all of you 856 owners or of similar vintage, or if anyone has any photos of how these things are supposed to be, that would also be greatly appreciated.

 

QUESTION NUMBER 1: Primary wire routing. Does anyone know which path the primary wire (the "red" one in my photos) was originally as designed supposed to take from the "I" terminal of the switch to the coil? To clarify, I have the connection correct, just not sure which side of the engine and what route it originally was installed by Wheel Horse when new. I put it back where I found it, but there is also a good possibility that it could have been modified and changed at some point in time. You will see in my photos, that from the coil it pretty much follows the fuel line along the right side of the tractor, through a "homemade" clamp, then either under the starter or around the starter, then up through the grommet and back to the dash panel switch. This MAY be correct, but just want to return it as close to original as possible and at least have it on the correct side of the chassis. I will say that it works where it is now, but just want to get it correct. I know, I'm nit-picking, but I get bogged down in being obsessed with details.

DSC_1401r.jpg.5a9d017c57bf351ee29fb0cf6eee8459.jpg

Front view from the coil. Condenser is on the left side of chassis (viewed from seat), and primary wire takes off back the right side. Again, there is a chance that these could possibly have been switched left/right at some point.

DSC_1402r.jpg.fd1b932d648d830d16e471cecb2d724b.jpg

 

QUESTION NUMBER 2: (And this is probably an easy one), Battery negative ground lead. Which bolt, chassis hole, etc. did this originally attach to? Based on the relatively short length of my existing cable, it's only long enough to reach either the starter/generator "pivot" bolt or the 3/8" bolt that holds the belt guard in place to the engine. When I tore the tractor down this time around, it was attached to the starter bolt, but that was also due to it being integral with the "knife" kill switch that I know was added and not original (see photo in electrical thread). Or is there possibly another hole in the frame that may have had a bolt originally that is now missing? Or has my battery cable been shortened and it originally went someplace else? I realize ground is ground and will probably work pretty much anywhere, but again just details.

 

I know I'm probably being anal about these things, but any input would be greatly appreciated. I have some other "routing questions" concerning the throttle and choke cables and linkages, but will hold them for another day once I get these wiring things in place. Thanks everyone, for your patience!

 

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ebinmaine

If you would be so kind as to share what you're using for fuse parts I'd much appreciate it.

I'll be doing the same to 3 of our 1967 tractors here.

 

Your coil lead location is likely correct.

That's where it is on our 867 which appears to be mostly original.

 

The battery ground on ours is to the belt guard Bolt.

I'd put it there to help spread the ground connection to the other parts of the chassis a little more.

 

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jebbear

Here you go Eric.

384150359_WiringHarnessPartsList.jpg.314de6904219fc4d6e2b4521a04236ae.jpg

A couple of notes:

- The 60 amp Maxi Fuse Holder only comes with 5" pre-attached leads. Make sure yours will reach on the battery end for attachment, mine JUST makes it (I hope). You will need to trial fit where you want this thing for location in the tractor, this thing is HUGE, but does have a mounting hole if you can use it.

- Same applies to the small Fuse Holder. Comes with 6" pre-attached leads, my length was sufficient to make it to the regulator without extending and will just be floating and unattached.

- Since I don't have a HD crimping tool, I soldered all connections in the large lugs. Then used the marine grade heat shrink tubing.

- Good luck finding a "flag" connector if you want to keep it as per original, but the "fork" should work just fine.

- I also made up a new battery negative cable, you will just need to buy a length of cable and 1 additional #6 AWG copper lug w/ 1/4" eye, and 1 each  #6 AWG lug w/ 3/8" eyelet.

 

Once I get the remaining lug connector and get it assembled and mounted, I will post additional pictures.

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ebinmaine
1 hour ago, jebbear said:

Since I don't have a HD crimping tool, I soldered all connections in the large lugs.

Thank you very much for the concise listing and picture with description. That is absolutely fantastic. I'm having Trina print that out so I can keep it for future reference.

 

As to the heavy duty crimping tool, I was trying to figure out how to make battery cables on my own because we are twisted and just like to do things for ourselves.

If you take a nail of appropriate size and hold it parallel to the Copper lug in a vise and very carefully squeeze down on the whole assembly it will put a crimp in the lug and squeeze the wires inside of it so that they won't come out.

 

It took me a couple of attempts to get it lined up the way I was happy with it.

 

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jebbear
1 minute ago, ebinmaine said:

As to the heavy duty crimping tool, I was trying to figure out how to make battery cables on my own because we are twisted and just like to do things for ourselves.

I am with you on that, half the fun is always trying to figure out a way to do things ourselves. I even thought about taking an old chisel, grinding it to a "flat" across the blade, then grinding a little pocket in the middle where the wire seats. Place this on some type of anvil and giving it a good whack. Didn't want to ruin any good chisels though, so I just decided on the soldering. Seemed to work out OK, just had to be a little careful with the heat.

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WHX??

On that brake band/spring issue Jeb I just slipped a piece of clear tubing over the spring. Might not be able to see it here

20170226_154630.jpg

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Mows4three
13 hours ago, jebbear said:

Couldn't really come up with any novel ideas that would greatly improve it, so its just going to have to rub a little bit. I guess good enough for the Wheel Horse engineers, good enough for me.

 

If you're really concerned about the brake band tension spring clearance (I would be too), how about making a 1/2" wide x 1/8" thick x 1 3/4" long extension tab that would bolt onto the Uni-Drive housing web and would extend an inch higher that the height of the web?  Drill a like sized hole in the extension tab to allow fitment of the spring and Presto! You've got your clearance problem solved.  

 

My $0.02 worth.....

 

Cheers!

 

Dave

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jebbear
27 minutes ago, WHX21 said:

I just slipped a piece of clear tubing over the spring.

That's probably the best solution to this issue, I think that is what I'll do. Thanks.

 

On another note, I see in the photo that you posted of the brake that it looks like you have installed new square headed set screws in your hubs. Where on earth did you find these? I have been looking just about everywhere and no one even carries them except for places like McMaster Carr and Fastenal but they want to sell me like 50 or 100 of them. I only need 4. Back to my above rant about there not being any real hardware stores anymore! :angry-soapbox:

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WHX??

That's bizarre you can't find plain black oxide ones at a hardware store or TSC. Our local Ace has them in the Hillman drawers. Those in that pic I got from McMaster as they had them in stainless In keeping with my stainless hardware theme on this build. Didn't have to order them bulk I think I just six of them. Might want to double check on that quantity thing I don't think you have to buy in bulk from them.

Edit:

Just checked and I did have to buy ten of them... prolly got some left on the shelf... lemme know you need I send....:)

I do see they have alloy steel ones in five packs...

https://www.mcmaster.com/square-head-specialty-bolts

Edited by WHX21
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jebbear
13 minutes ago, WHX21 said:

That's bizarre you can't find plain black oxide ones at a hardware store or TSC

I've checked at TSC and various hardware stores in this area. Also the Hillman drawers at several locations.Can't seem to find any in this area. The square head bolts that you referenced in McMaster are not set screws with the Cup Point, which I don't really like to use as a set screw where it won't bite into the axle. I have one good one in my supplies, but the other three are used and have the cup totally obliterated and gone, so I need a minimum of three.

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jebbear

OK, now for the next "dilemma of the day". Several months back when I was on my mission to install a bronze bearing everywhere on the tractor that had a lot of wear and slop in all of the moving parts, I neglected to place a couple of them in the attachment foot pedal on the right side of the tractor. It really wasn't an oversight, but I had concerns about reaming the pedal casting in order to accept my standard "go to" 3/4"ID x 7/8"OD bearings. So I decided at the time to forgo any modifications in the pedal and just live with the wear and play in the pedal. But after installing, I'm just not happy with how excessive this play is. This has always been a trouble spot, at least for me on this tractor, because all of the slop in this area seemed to affect belt/pulley alignment and resulted in a lot of destroyed belts driving the mower deck. I just don't feel comfortable leaving it the way it is. Here is a photo of the area in the casting of my concern:

DSC_1414r.jpg.3230fc38db5be1efa75d22d23ae976fc.jpg

DSC_1415r.jpg.00d3db40895169362a412cd2d4613544.jpg

As you can see, the wall of the casting is currently only approx 0.120" thick. If I ream the hole to accept the standard 0.875" bearing, it leaves the wall thickness much thinner yet at approx 0.0575" remaining. So, I am looking for some insight and opinions on what you guys all think. If I do ream this out, will it dangerously weaken the wall of the casting to the point it may initiate a crack in the metal? Or is there enough material in the upper portion of the casting to adequately support the bearing and offset this loss without concern? I don't have access to a mill or any way to re-bore this off-center and take all of the material from the top and none from the bottom. Too bad I waited until everything was painted and awaiting assembly to come to this conclusion, but so be it. Earlier on in this thread, I posted numerous details on modifications with bearings and such, and you all have been extremely helpful in arriving at decisions. @Sarge, we also had a lot of discussion on bearings and machining and value your opinion in these matters. Thanks in advance to everyone for all of your input.

 

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Pullstart
5 hours ago, jebbear said:

OK, now for the next "dilemma of the day". Several months back when I was on my mission to install a bronze bearing everywhere on the tractor that had a lot of wear and slop in all of the moving parts, I neglected to place a couple of them in the attachment foot pedal on the right side of the tractor. It really wasn't an oversight, but I had concerns about reaming the pedal casting in order to accept my standard "go to" 3/4"ID x 7/8"OD bearings. So I decided at the time to forgo any modifications in the pedal and just live with the wear and play in the pedal. But after installing, I'm just not happy with how excessive this play is. This has always been a trouble spot, at least for me on this tractor, because all of the slop in this area seemed to affect belt/pulley alignment and resulted in a lot of destroyed belts driving the mower deck. I just don't feel comfortable leaving it the way it is. Here is a photo of the area in the casting of my concern:

DSC_1414r.jpg.3230fc38db5be1efa75d22d23ae976fc.jpg

DSC_1415r.jpg.00d3db40895169362a412cd2d4613544.jpg

As you can see, the wall of the casting is currently only approx 0.120" thick. If I ream the hole to accept the standard 0.875" bearing, it leaves the wall thickness much thinner yet at approx 0.0575" remaining. So, I am looking for some insight and opinions on what you guys all think. If I do ream this out, will it dangerously weaken the wall of the casting to the point it may initiate a crack in the metal? Or is there enough material in the upper portion of the casting to adequately support the bearing and offset this loss without concern? I don't have access to a mill or any way to re-bore this off-center and take all of the material from the top and none from the bottom. Too bad I waited until everything was painted and awaiting assembly to come to this conclusion, but so be it. Earlier on in this thread, I posted numerous details on modifications with bearings and such, and you all have been extremely helpful in arriving at decisions. @Sarge, we also had a lot of discussion on bearings and machining and value your opinion in these matters. Thanks in advance to everyone for all of your input.

 

 

That’s just under 1/16” thick, at the narrowest.  My vote is that it’ll fare just fine.  Is the pedal cast steel or cast iron?  Either way, there is plenty of meat around the rest of the section to hold it all together.

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jebbear
4 minutes ago, pullstart said:

Is the pedal cast steel or cast iron?

I am really not sure. I guess I assumed cast iron but that's just a guess. I never did figure why they just didn't bore this in the center to begin with.

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jebbear

Another idea that I had was reducing the bearing size, in other words, McMaster Carr sells one that is made for a 5/8" bore with an OD of 13/16" instead of the 7/8" for the 3/4" bearing. I would then need to ream the bearing to 3/4" which would leave it thin but should take up the play. That would save me another 1/32" on the thin side of the pedal casting.

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Pullstart

6 to one, 1/2 dozen to the other.  I bet you’re splitting hairs, what would be easiest?

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DBlackston
9 hours ago, jebbear said:

OK, now for the next "dilemma of the day". Several months back when I was on my mission to install a bronze bearing everywhere on the tractor that had a lot of wear and slop in all of the moving parts, I neglected to place a couple of them in the attachment foot pedal on the right side of the tractor. It really wasn't an oversight, but I had concerns about reaming the pedal casting in order to accept my standard "go to" 3/4"ID x 7/8"OD bearings. So I decided at the time to forgo any modifications in the pedal and just live with the wear and play in the pedal. But after installing, I'm just not happy with how excessive this play is. This has always been a trouble spot, at least for me on this tractor, because all of the slop in this area seemed to affect belt/pulley alignment and resulted in a lot of destroyed belts driving the mower deck. I just don't feel comfortable leaving it the way it is. Here is a photo of the area in the casting of my concern:

DSC_1414r.jpg.3230fc38db5be1efa75d22d23ae976fc.jpg

DSC_1415r.jpg.00d3db40895169362a412cd2d4613544.jpg

As you can see, the wall of the casting is currently only approx 0.120" thick. If I ream the hole to accept the standard 0.875" bearing, it leaves the wall thickness much thinner yet at approx 0.0575" remaining. So, I am looking for some insight and opinions on what you guys all think. If I do ream this out, will it dangerously weaken the wall of the casting to the point it may initiate a crack in the metal? Or is there enough material in the upper portion of the casting to adequately support the bearing and offset this loss without concern? I don't have access to a mill or any way to re-bore this off-center and take all of the material from the top and none from the bottom. Too bad I waited until everything was painted and awaiting assembly to come to this conclusion, but so be it. Earlier on in this thread, I posted numerous details on modifications with bearings and such, and you all have been extremely helpful in arriving at decisions. @Sarge, we also had a lot of discussion on bearings and machining and value your opinion in these matters. Thanks in advance to everyone for all of your input.

 

 

 

I bet you could also find a member to ahift it for you for the fee of mailing it there and back.

 

Alot of helpful people here!

 

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Sarge

For a hole that is that badly offset (not bored correctly from the start) the only way it can be repaired is to move the hole over on a mill. Engine machine shops or industrial shops can do this operation in less than 30mins but will want to charge the standard 1hr rate due to setup time. It will have to be indicated to correct the hole centerline and the measurements done not to end up with an egg-shaped hole for a bushing.  I do not have a mill here and my buddy that does have one is not tooled up to do that procedure, unfortunately. That pedal is cast iron or steel, a weld test would reveal which it is but no matter - it will machine just fine on a mill. Using a boring bar to cut only the areas to make the hole correct will require doing an offset cut, using that thin portion as the stop point. There is a whole network of retired machinists/hobbyists that can handle this job and most are willing to do it for a few bucks + shipping. The trick is to find those people, lot of them hang out on YouTube and the OWWM website forum as well as other forums. The practical machinist forum would probably be able to help you - I've seen others pop in with a simple post showing the old part and the problem - they respond with someone that is willing to fix it.

 

If the adjustment is an issue - you can plan the repair to address it by using either a thick wall bushing (common, off-shelf sizes) or thin walled bronze specialized sizes. Of course, those thinner walled bronze or brass are more expensive. On many of the axle castings I've repaired/installed a liner it required a thin-walled insert versus the standard inserts due to remaining wall thickness. Cast iron or cast steel parts will require no less than .125" wall to retain any strength - you are already worn past that point and risk the part cracking easily. I do believe if that hole were moved over into the thicker portion and a bronze liner installed the part can be saved. Or, just take the short route and find one that was bored correctly at the factory and go from there addressing wear in the normal manner we've been discussing. I guarantee if you try to ream that part with either a standard, stepped or tapered reamer at this point from either hand or a drill press - it will follow the weak wall and probably cut only that thin side the most, destroying the part.

 

Sarge

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jebbear
27 minutes ago, Sarge said:

the only way it can be repaired is to move the hole over on a mill

Thanks Sarge, I guess you verified my fear of weakening the thin wall portion of the casting. Not sure now how to approach this. I am wondering if this thing was bored incorrectly or if that is just the way they all are by design, since shifting the bore upward MAY affect how all of the linkages and the locking lever work together and throw something out of kilter. I have also already re-fabricated the locking lever at this point to eliminate the wear in that portion of the assembly. :text-thankyouyellow:

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jebbear

I wonder about using a piece of shim stock, and just forming a "tube" shape by wrapping around the 3/4" shaft on the frame then sliding the pedal on as is? It would have a joint of course where the ends butted together, but may pick up at least a little bit of the play. The wear in my pedal is approx 0.015" to 0.020", so using about a 0.005" to 0.008" thick stock would at least improve the play. Or would this just wear out way prematurely and be just a waste of time and effort? I see that this stuff is available in varying thicknesses in both bronze and brass, and wonder if either would work depending on availability?

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Sarge

You won't be able to form bronze shim stock - it is brittle beyond belief, like glass. Brass shim would work and probably last much longer than you'd expect and I have made wraps to correct excessive play in places where it couldn't be reamed out. Pick well made red brass shim stock, not the hobby brass available at a hardware store - it's a different and easily wearing material.

 

You really need to compare to another part off another tractor - perhaps a member has another one laying around? All mine are hydro units except the old 854, which is buried at the moment under a tarp and a big snowdrift.


Sarge

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RandyLittrell
21 minutes ago, jebbear said:

I wonder about using a piece of shim stock, and just forming a "tube" shape by wrapping around the 3/4" shaft on the frame then sliding the pedal on as is? It would have a joint of course where the ends butted together, but may pick up at least a little bit of the play. The wear in my pedal is approx 0.015" to 0.020", so using about a 0.005" to 0.008" thick stock would at least improve the play. Or would this just wear out way prematurely and be just a waste of time and effort? I see that this stuff is available in varying thicknesses in both bronze and brass, and wonder if either would work depending on availability?

 

I was just getting ready to post this. Brass shim stock should work pretty well, I think. 

 

Also, what if the hole is offset because they needed additional travel to make things work right after castings had been made? Just a thought. 

 

 

 

 

 

Randy

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jebbear
5 minutes ago, Sarge said:

You really need to compare to another part off another tractor

I would agree, as long as I can find one that is not worn just as bad as mine.

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jebbear
1 minute ago, RandyLittrell said:

Also, what if the hole is offset because they needed additional travel to make things work right after castings had been made?

That is also one of my concerns, if I would have attempted to mill it to accept a bearing. Thanks!

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