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giantsean

D200 starting problems

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giantsean

Hey guys,

 

Just threw this in the main forum though it may be more appropriate in Engines, but maybe not :).  I have a D200 I bought in June (you can see my original posts to view it).  When I picked it up it ran fine, put it through a few stress tests and it didn't stumble once.  Took it off the trailer and it sat covered on my lawn until the other day.  Now that I am ready to use it, I fired it up to put it through the paces.  That's where the problem started. 

 

I have a pretty hilly yard.  I was able to get one lap down a hill, across the back yard, and back up a hill.  On lap 2 at the bottom of the hill it started stumbling.  I let it sit for a while and after a few tries messing with the choke and throttle, I was able to get it up the hill and parked in its spot.  While charging the battery I noticed the positive cable was barely hanging on, and was hoping that the stumbling was related.  Tightened up and let it charge.

 

Today on a full charge I decided to try again.  Took the lap and it died in the same spot (only one lap this time).  While trying I had to start it and or run it full choke to get it to move, especially as it warmed up.Got it back up the hill and figured I'd test it out on flatter ground.   Tried yet another mild hill and it sputtered and died, and now will not start at all.  While running I was testing it at different speeds.  The trans made what I thought were some wacky noises but I chalked it up to an unfamiliar machine.  I wasn't testing at different speeds when it sputtered out.. I was just running flat, maybe a slight tilt to the left as the back part of the yard continues to slope.

 

I suspect it is a fuel delivery issue of some kind.  Not sure if it's exacerbated by slopes but I'm sure age has something to do with it.  I have not tested it extensively but I can smell fresh gas in the carb... maybe not enough  The fuel filter is full and doesn't have anything gnarly in there.  There is some sort of valve plate thing which is in line after the filter but before the carb - not sure what that even is.  Tomorrow I will try to start it and put it back where it goes before more testing (it's sitting half on my neighbor's lawn as I type... I'm afraid if I let it roll it will continue down the hill and keep going until winter lol.

 

One last thought... I learned too late about the ticking time bomb that is the D series parking brake.  I know at one point during purchase testing I set the brake and let it roll (I don't recall if the engine was on at the time) but it just wheeled free.  I doubt that would have had any effect on the current issue, but it's weird enough that I thought it worth mentioning.

 

Thank you for any help!

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953 nut

:WRS:            The most common culprit in situations like yours is fuel that contains ethanol. I would suggest you replace the fuel line (ethanol destroys them) and  the filter. Replace the present fuel with ethanol-free gas and add Seafoam at double the recommended amount. If you don't know where to find non-ethanol gas try these sites.

http://www.buyrealgas.com/

https://www.pure-gas.org/

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pfrederi

:text-yeahthat:

 

If that doesn't improve it time to pull the carb and overhaul it.  Pay close attention to setting the float.

 

Parking brake failure...It has been ground down and will not work.  Hopefully the metallic shavings were caught by the suction screen/magnet and the filter. Have you changed the fluid/filter???  If not you should.  If the tractor doesn't lose power when hot I would live with the lack of parking brake.

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pacer

Yes to what has already been said, with it having sat for some time its almost certainly a fuel related problem, (ethanol) I would bet that you are gonna have to go in the carb and hope its not so gunked up as to be non repairable.

 

Valve plate thingy - that is the fuel pump, and (just my opinion here!) but if it was mine I'd replace that problematic thing with an electric....all 3 of my D's have electric.

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Sarge

I'd really recommend going electric as well , previous owner on mine evidently put one many years ago when the original failed - they stopped making that electric pump in the 70's so it lasted quite awhile . If you look through some of my D posts/threads I had done a writeup on how to route a return line by using a Jeep CJ filter - that keeps the pump cooled and takes the pressure strain off of the pulse type pumps - which can burn them out .

 

Sarge

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pacer

Dang Sarge, I never considered doing a 'bypass' , my 180 has had one on for something like 20+ years. I just disconnect the manual and run the lectric. Though a mounting spot is kinda scarce, I have all 3 mounted on the left frame just under the plate in front of the seat mounting, adding a filter between tank and pump.

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giantsean

At first I thought ethanol too but the seller told me that whatever fuel it had in it is still in it (guess it was a family member's).  It had run great for sitting around but maybe the act of running it through the lines started a process of gumming stuff up.  Stupid me, as I'm pretty anal about treating gas for my stuff and running everything dry every winter.

 

Is there a good guide to cleaning out carbs on these things?  Can I just shoot some carb cleaner down it's mullet first and hope for the best?

 

As for the fuel pump, I had googled the engine last night looking for answers.  Only saw the fuel pump part not placement, but is that installed toward the front of the engine or the rear?  The "plate" I'm taking about is toward the rear.  I'll try to take some pics later.

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Sarge

I set mine up right below the tank on the trans mounting plate - I used a different shutoff valve that is rated for gasoline/alky and just installed a T fitting for the return line . Pump is wired to come on with the key switch and the twin outlet fuel filter (CJ Jeep) is mounted next to the carb with the return port (off to one side) goes back to the tank valve tee .

 

The bypass is just a safety for the newer pumps as their solenoids are built like beer cans in comparison to 20yrs ago . It's pretty tough to find a USA made Facet , the old square transformer looking pump but they are still available , albeit expensive little buggers . I just went with it's knockoff imported Facet branded one for now , see how it works . It is nice not to have to crank the engine so much and it starts immediately with a light choke - even on cold days .

 

Ethanol in our fuels eats the rubber lines from the inside out and will put those tiny pieces of rubber carbon in the smallest of holes - I'd take that carb off , get a simple kit and clean it very thoroughly . There is newer rubber line rated for ethanol but I'm seeing signs of it breaking down now as well . I use Parts America clear/blue line made for motorcycles and other toys - it is absolutely compatible with all fuels and doesn't fall apart over time - on some of my equipment those lines are over 5yrs old now with no sign of breaking down although they can become quite soft . All engines here run on Phillip's 66 91 octane non-ethanol fuel . I do recommend using good quality wire spring clamps or screw clamps that won't bite into the line and cut it just to be safe - don't trust push-on fittings with this stuff even at low pressures . It will have a thinner wall thickness than the rubber line so clamps have to sized accordingly - I buy the wire spring versions by the bag from McMaster-Carr ( I love how they have my stuff here the next morning ) .

 

Sarge

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giantsean

Well the good news is that she fired up long enough to move the 40 feet back to a parking spot.  Shot some carb cleaner down the gullet beforehand for good measure, so maybe that helped.  I agree a good carb cleaning is in order, and ditching those original fuel lines.  You guys were spot on about the fuel pump... it is patently obvious that's what it is, esp as one hose leads to a flange into the block.  I assumed back then it was all mechanical.  Pretty weird shaped fuel pump though... I'm used to the B&S circles :)

 

We can't get ethanol free gas here in CT (at least w/o paying out the a$$ for a little can at a big box store) so I always stock up on Stabil Marine and treatment.  So now to the next adventure... draining the old gas.  I unscrewed what I thought was the drain cock for the fuel tank.  There is a little plastic knob that just spins free so I took off the nut behind it, which turned out to be a jam nut that fell down into the knob far enough that I had to dig it out with picks and putty lol.  This is another design where I can make assumptions that can be wrong so don't want to break it, but I figure it's either supposed to pull out to drain or unscrew but the knob has come loose.  

 

Can already see how this relationship is going to be :P

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giantsean

Never mind I RTFM.. it's a fuel shutoff valve (which was actually my 2nd guess, but the free spinning threw me off for both functions).  Hopefully not too hard to find a replacement.

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953 nut
5 hours ago, giantsean said:

fuel shutoff valve (which was actually my 2nd guess, but the free spinning threw me off for both functions).  Hopefully not too hard to find a replacemen

@rmaynard posted a few days ago that he has some for sale, send him a PM.

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Sarge

Even with the treatments , the ethanol stuff is going to start going bad in around 3wks depending upon it's quality . I do mechanical work in a big circle of automotive , hot rods , heavy equipment and even L&G stuff so I'm running into this a lot - ethanol eats parts/tanks and destroys all things old . When I fill up my gas cans I put the correct amount of Sta-bil in the can prior to filling it , the stuff works best with very fresh gas and I never to this day will fuel anything the same day the fuel truck shows up - just my policy to prevent dirt/water intrusion into the fuel .The non-ethanol around here runs $0.80 over the price of "regular" fuel and I've left it treated with Sta-Bil for nearly a year and had zero issues with any engine yet - it's that much of a difference - even in the newer (read , really finicky) 2-stroke equipment like the Stihl blower/vac I have here - still running this year off last year's fuel I mixed with Sta-Bil . If you look at all the newer 2-stroke engines , they all use the alky resistant fuel lines now - the manufacturers got tired of warranty claims when their engines refused to start on fuel that was less than a month old and leaks that could potentially cause a fire/injury .

 

The port in the fuel tank on the D is a simple 1/8"-27 NPT thread - common shut off valves fit easily and even a good quality ball valve will work fine .

 

Sarge

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giantsean

Thanks guys.  Yeah Sarge I agree.  I am a huge stickler for fresh gas and I will treat it right at the pump (best I can do).  My 2 strokes all use canned premix.  Winterizing means running dry or for eq with shutoff I run til it dies.  So far that has done me pretty well, but I know a lot of folks that don't even consider it.  I think newer stuff is built w/ ethanol in mind but the D200 manual gives me the choice of leaded gas lol.. so to say it's a different era is an understatement.

 

Even starting up an old rig with old gas is something I normally don't do, it ran so well during testing and I just couldn't resist because I had not taken it for a good spin since I got it.  I am hoping my blast of carb cleaner got it going, but next order of business is to replace those lines, which look every bit original.

 

If I was to take off the carb for a bath, are gasket kits for the 532 still available?

 

Oh yeah and for the fuel lines... we don't have Parts America here but are we just taking regular 1/4" poly line?  

 

Edited by giantsean
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rjcap

Fuel pump. My C-125 was doing the same thing. You can get an electric for about $50. Easy to install. Change the fuel lines while you are at it. I picked up the pump and new fuel lines at Advance Auto. As far as a gasket for the carb I did remove mine before I determined it was the pump. I made my own gasket out of a sheet of gasket material I picked up at Advance Auto also.

Edited by rjcap
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Sarge

The big twin K-532 carb kit is easy to source and the carb is about as simple as they come - just be careful with the screws for the air cleaner mounting neck (adapter) , don't strip those holes out like someone did on my K482 ...lol . The kit should be nearly identical to the K341 1" Kohler carb if I remember correctly - a lot of good implement/small equipment dealers stock either the Kohler or Stens kits , my Green dealer locally has them on the shelf for their own shop . About 50 miles away is a neat old-school dealer that sold several L&G brands that stocks Kohler parts like no one else and even has all the old books on the counter to find the correct part numbers for vintage equipment - any time I'm over that way I stop by and stock up on carb kits and small parts - usually to tune of over $100 worth but nice to have on hand as I work on a lot of stuff outside of my own .

 

The fuel line - I've been using the semi-transparent blue Polyurethane from Parts Unlimited , originally sourced 25' length bags from a local Harley shop - they swear by the stuff . Now I see that they have changed it's ratings to no more than 10% Ethanol - which tells me they've ran into issues . If you do not have a source for non-ethanol fuel locally , I would be very careful about checking your lines occasionally to prevent any surprises . I see now even the aircraft guys are using the stuff as most say the yellow Tygon is not totally compatible and can start to break down - the arguments continue on this subject in all the racing/aircraft/small engine and mechanic's forums .

 

Here's the Parts Unlimited link - most all the WH stuff is 1/4" line sizing . Part number for the 1/4" line is 0706-0106 - $17.95 per 25' roll . Glad I looked at my stock - I'm nearly out again and will order both sizes I use in 100' rolls this time .

http://www.parts-unlimited.com/products/?productId=432898

 

Aircraft Spruce's Bing fuel line , not cheap but anything that flies...well you get the idea  - http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/bingfuel.php

 

This whole ethanol thing has created some really ugly problems , both in our economy as especially small and even large engines . I've had to replace more carburetors than I care to think about from the stuff eating the pot cast aluminum bodies internally - when I still worked on the Webers I had to source a new set of 40DCNF's for a guy with a 308 Ferrari . That fuel usage cost him over $2,000 in parts alone and he had to pay another shop to replace the lines in the car , clean the tank and set up the carbs - he was angry about that bill for quite awhile . The Public isn't being informed of the damage the stuff will do to an engine over time and you can ask any mechanic that works on anything fueled by gasoline - it's a very sore subject and most are sick of dealing with it . Many stations/networks have been routinely caught putting far too much ethanol in the pump gas - some as high as 18% and had some large fines levied by Illinois . This was caught by local mechanics getting flooded with engine problems and fuel systems rotted out even on newer vehicles . Until the Public becomes educated enough to fight the big Farm and Oil Industry lobby the stuff isn't going away and they have lobbied for some time now to increase the level content up to 15% - which would be even worse .

 

Point is - might want to have a discussion with your local station owners , see if they are willing to start selling the non-ethanol fuel - that's how myself and several others got the Phillips station to carry the 91 octane pure .

 

Sarge

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pacer

Recently "my" wally world razed the Murphy gas station and came back with a much more updated facility. The pumps are set up to dispense the 3 'regular' fuels, Diesel, and ethanol free fuel. The ethanol free is typically 50cents higher, so with Murphys already low fuel prices the cost isnt bad at all (couple days ago was $2.49) One problem tho is that its always BUSY!

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953 nut
7 hours ago, Sarge said:

Until the Public becomes educated enough to fight the big Farm and Oil Industry lobby the stuff isn't going away

They seem to have a strangle hold on the "ultra-environmentalists" who don't think about all of the hydrocarbon emissions it takes to convert corn into ethanol. In fact the net effect on the environment is negative!

anen.jpg.bbe29049635dd9becff6b2fd9a7b24cb.jpg

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Sarge

The Public is clueless - best example is the added cost it builds at the grocery store . You're burning potential food sources in your vehicle , all while slowly destroying it at the same time - makes about as much sense as the wind mills we build in this country...although those are at least a slow step forward .

 

Until people physically see the damage done to engine internals they won't care , they just like "cheap gas" although the cost just comes elsewhere , albeit a bit hidden . I'm just tired of having to fix the consequences on equipment and trying so hard not to be a flaming arse in how I educate the owner - after they complain about the repair costs . The whole thing is joke , really - and a bad one at that .

 

Rant off ,

 

Sarge

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giantsean

Hey guys... have been out of the country a while but back now, and have a new Facet cube pump  and some new line arriving today.  I'll try those out and see if it solves my run and then die issue.  

 

On the other hand it got me thinking, if the float is jammed open with crap or in bad shape in general, could I be seeing the same stalling problem from flooding?  Of course I'll try the lines / gas before I start picking apart the carb, just trying to keep up the momentum

 

Is it me or is that carb/throttle setup a bit weird?  Set screws to nowhere... metal on metal contact to bump open the throttle?

 

Edited by giantsean

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giantsean

So just to close this out.  Installed the cube and lines... for now I just bolted it to the original fuel pump bracket with one bolt.  Took off the gas tank (managing to snap off a stud in my haste... #@#%^#$%!!!).  Found it not too bad but flushed out whatever nuggets were in there, installed a spare shutoff, put back and filled with new treated gas and some Seafoam.  Fired up straight away and ran like a champ.  I also banged down the battery clamp which I swear cannot grip worth a sh*t... still wonder if that was bouncing around and contributing to the problem.  At any rate I did not need to get into the carb at all, which is great for right now.  Thanks for all the good advice!

 

But... now the PTO is stuck engaged.  This is fine as I need it to till up my front lawn, but long term I guess it's time for a new thread :P

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