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Power steering

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Mith

Ian, I'm in england, so I'm in the same boat as you, no WH parts. With my power steering I added an additional pump and a 4 port steering valve off ebay.

You can buy 5 port valves new, but they can be expensive. John Deere use them on their tractors (455 etc)

I suppose you could use a 4 port, but you run the risk of blowing the seals out with the backpressure. I dont know what pressure you are using, but less than 1000psi and it should be OK, check the specs of the valve you get to be sure.

You can use a 4 port like refrac says, if you dont have an additional valve after the steering valve.

Basically, you could just use a 4 port valve. Connect the pressure from the trans into the pressure on the steering valve. Connect the return on the steering valve to the pressure on the lift cylinder valve, then the return on the lift cylinder valve back to the trans.

That will work, but you run the risk of damaging the steering valve.

You want the steering valve before any other valves so it has the priority.

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refracman

Mith,

Never thought of the back pressure. and you are correct the 5 port would be ideal.

TO solve the back pressure problem wouldn't a check valve in the line from the steering to the lift valve resolve this issue?

Here is a link to check vavle

shttp://www.discounthydraulichose.com/S ... earch.y=22

and here is the hydraulic diagram for the unit in this thread.

scan0001.jpg

Sorry for any misdirection on this project Ian

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Mith

No, a check valve wont protect the steering valve. The pressure will be the same in the pressure line before a check valve as it will be after it.

To be honest, it isnt really backpressure we are talking about, its excess return line pressure for the steering valve. The return is designed to be very low pressure, basically just to go through a filter into the tank.

By putting excess return line pressure on a valve you build pressure between the pressure and return lines. They are only designed to build pressure between the pressure and work ports. Return line pressure blows out seals.

Note in the diagram you posted they have a separate pump for the steering.

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Ian928

OK, it seems this is not the way to go then? I am not into hydraulics (as you may have understood by now!) but what would it take to fit this setup on a D-200?

How about a separate return to the tank? I can drill and tap a hole so the return will be completely separate. And then use a T-piece on the pressure pipe to the lift cylinder lever.

And what about pressure? I found reference on another forum to a test pressure on the D200 pump of 70 to 150 lbs and according to the diagram the steering valve is powered by 1200psi? Would this be like steering without oil pressure at all?

EDIT: I found this in anothe thread:

Accoring to my manual, the charge pressure test should never fall bolow

50psi. That is, cold should be 70-150 psi and norm temp otta be NO LESS than

50psi. The implement pressure is another dog. It's supposed to be from 550

to 700 psi. That's what my book sez about the Sundstrand trans.... other

units may vary, but not by much.

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Mith

No, you cant T pressure lines on an open center system (which is what you have). You can however T return lines.

If you T a pressure line the flow unloads through the valve that you aren't actuating, so nothing will work, you wont build any pressure.

Easiest way for you to add power steering is to get a 5 port valve.

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Mith

Something that you probably should think about too, steering valves have very specific flow requirements. You are going to need to find the flow from your tractor and match your valve to that.

Easiest way to find the flow is to take one of the hoses off and aim it into a bucket. Hold the valve open for a minute, then measure the volume of fluid in the bucket.

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Ian928

No, you cant T pressure lines on an open center system (which is what you have). You can however T return lines.

If you T a pressure line the flow unloads through the valve that you aren't actuating, so nothing will work, you wont build any pressure.

Easiest way for you to add power steering is to get a 5 port valve.

Ok, I think I understand, the oil flow free until you push the lever and change the path of the oil to go into the cylinder! OK, but then I also understand that you rather could put the valves in series? If you put the steering valve in front of the lift valve, you would never loose the ability to steer?

I am sorry Mitch, but what is a 5-port valve, and is this something you could fit to any hydraulic system or do we need a special valve for this tractor?

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Ian928

Mitch, I thought about it again, and if you put the stering valve in series in front of the lift valve, the return line fron the settering valve will see pressure when the lift valve is used, bad idea...

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Mith

From the top

OK, but then I also understand that you rather could put the valves in series?

You HAVE to put the valves in series. If you put valves in parallel the fluid will always freeflow through the valve that you aren't using, hence the valve you want to use will never work.

but what is a 5-port valve,

A 5 port valve is a steering valve with 5 ports. I believe you were looking at a 4 port steering valve before.

The ports on a 4 port are pressure, return, left and right.

The 5 port valve has those 4 ports, but has the addition of the 5th power beyond (in europe, high pressure carryover). This 5th port is essential to you, as it allows you to run addition valves downstream (your existing valve).

If you put the steering valve in front of the lift valve, you would never loose the ability to steer?

Correct. If you put the steering valve after every time you lift an attachment you wont be able to steer.

if you put the steering valve in series in front of the lift valve, the return line fron the settering valve will see pressure when the lift valve is used, bad idea

EXACTLY! That is the reason why you need the power beyond (pressure carryover) port on the 5 port valve. This port allows you to plumb your lift valve after the steering valve.

I'll attach a drawing which hopefully shows what I mean.

Image164.jpg

I dont know if you can read hydraulic drawings (not hard to firgure out though), the steering valve is in the lower right corner, the lift valve in the lower left.

You can see the 5th port marked PB on the steering valve going to the Pressure on the hydraulic control valve (your lift valve).

JD 455 hydraulic schematic

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refracman

Mith

we use this setup on some of our equipment, would it not work in this case?

The first valve is allways actuated with the return going to the tank instead of to the valve bank with a check valve inline.

scan0001-1.jpg

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Ian928

Mith (I am sorry I even managed to misspell your username...),

Excellent drawing, I understand it now! I believed the 5-port valve was an extra valve to be able to tap into an existing system or maybe a special part to fit on the pump to gain a extra power line.

Ihave now realised the fact we don't have a rear cylinder on the D200, so we could possibly use that system and get away with a 4-port steering valve. But then again if we want to use the rear cylinder sometimes, we would not be able...

I believe the 5-ports are rare? Maybe it is better to sacrifice the rear cylinder possibility and use a 4-port power steering? We don't have any plans for a rear cylinder as for now.

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Mith

Steve, I'm not sure I understand your diagram.

I'm assuming the block to the right of the pump is a spool valve block, and a power beyond port is going to the PS?

IMO, the steering valve should always be first in the circuit.

Ian, if you dont have a hydraulic lift on the tractor then you could just plumb from the pump, into the pressure on a 4 port valve, then put the return from the 4 port valve straight back into the trans. That would work.

As long as there is nothing connected before or after the 4 port valve that is fine.

In other words, if you replace the existing valve with a 4 port steering valve then that would be fine.

Make sure you have a pressure relief valve somewhere in your system (there might be one on your pump inside the trans, I dont know).

If you take pictures of the hydraulics on the tractor it might be possible to tell.

I had trouble finding a 5 port valve here in the UK, hence why I added an extra pump and went with the 4 port.

The steering valve is just below the red connectors in the photo. The pole going to the top right is the steering column.

Image103.jpg

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Ian928

Hmmm... Tried to search for 5-port but did not find anything.

BUT I can see that this John Deere 420 steering valve has 5 ports, does this automatically mean it has Power Beyond?

c0b5_1_sbl.JPG

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Mith

Ian, it almost certainly does have power beyond if it has 5 ports.

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refracman

Mith you correct :thumbs: that the 5 port would be the simplest way to add power steering, but since it seems I do everything the hard way.... :whistle:

So here we go

On the valve that is first inline from the pump close a outgoing aux. supply port, then block the spool valve so the other aux. supply port has power at all times. This accomplishes the same thing but in a round about way as haveing the 5th port.

If a 4 port is only available Ian could use the extra valve he has on his tractor. In the event he decided to add the 3 point he would have to obtain another valve and add it to the valve bank and plumb it to the 3pt cyl.

note: D200 valve bank is expandable. ( in US models)

note: drawing is of valve bank with 3pt in use

scan0002.jpg

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Mith

Steve, are you using a closed center steering valve? Thats the only way I can see that working (which presumably it does as you are using it).

Thats certainly a very strange system, if you hadn't told me it works I wouldn't have said it would.

What machine is it on?

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refracman

Here is a pic of one of them. Specialy made to apply refractory material in a basic oxygen furnace. It powered by a jd 4cyl desiel coupled to 2 25gpm hyd pumps. It is completly hyd drive. It is controled by either wired / radio remote.

Designed exclusively for the application of gunite material to furnace refractory surfaces. Extensive bottom / lance stroke enables a reach of over 30 feet from the front of the machine, deep into furnace interiors.

Attached Image

post-7-1231936172.jpg

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HarleyMan46929

Steve, why not just use a power steering pump from a pickup/car, which already has the reservoir/tank built-in, add a hydraulic steering control box, and a hydraulic cylinder to push/pull the linkage to steer the front wheels?

And, the pump already has the necessary hoses to attach to a steering gear, just get the high and low pressure lines to run from the box to the hydraulic cylinder, which, in turn, pushes and pulls on the arm that controls the drag-links to the front wheels.

Any advice or ideas on whether this set-up will work? Please let me know.

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Nick

HarleyMan46929, A car power steering pump with a self contained or remote reservoir could work with a steering valve and a cylinder (we used one for hydraulic lift on a gear drive tractor). As Mith has mentioned you would need to match the flow and pressure of the pump to the specifications of the steering valve. On another tractor you might add that pump on the flywheel side of the engine.

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HarleyMan46929

HarleyMan46929, A car power steering pump with a self contained or remote reservoir could work with a steering valve and a cylinder (we used one for hydraulic lift on a gear drive tractor). As Mith has mentioned you would need to match the flow and pressure of the pump to the specifications of the steering valve. On another tractor you might add that pump on the flywheel side of the engine.

Thanks, Nick!

If I took the steering valve/box off the same vehicle the pump comes off of, wouldn't that eliminate the guess-work of making sure the flow and pressure rates were the same between the pump and valve? This valve/ steering gear also has the advantage of having the steering arm attached...all I have to do is figure out how to get the hole in the steering arm to mate up to the drag-link on the D-180's steering linkage. It will likely have to have a heck of a bushing to fit it properly with the Dodge's original steering arm.

I'm planning on using the pump and steering valve with arm from my old Dodge, although I may have to re-manufacture the steering arm on the valve so it works with the drag-link connection on the Wheel Horse.(Ain't working on mechanical things the most fun you can have with your clothes on???)

Then, I have to figure out the framing system to hold the pump securely to the front of the engine and run a belt off the front PTO to drive the pump, and also hold the steering column/valve set-up at the right angle while staying within the parameters of the steering tower/gauge/dash assembly. (Looks like I'd better get some more multi-use electrodes for the ol' Lincoln 225 welder, Huh???!!!)?

javascript:emoticon(':thumbs:')

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Ian928

We have just bought a 5-port power steering valve and cylinder from a John Deere 420 tractor on Ebay:

bd71_1_sbl.JPG

b9db_1_sbl.JPG

We will post back to tell how this turns out. Thank you all who helped us!

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Ian928

A quick update on fitting hydraulic steering from a John Deere 420 on our D-200:

We started today with removing everything from the old steering system including the bracket that held the steering box. Then we looked if it was possible to fit the steering valve without hitting something, it turned out to be possible to fit it quite easy with two braces across the frame. And the best of this story this far. Not only was the outer column of the same diameter as on the WH part, the shaft even had the correct splines for the WH steering wheel!

We had to options regarding fitting the cylinder, we could fit it so it moved the front steering relay like the rod from the steering box, or we could make it work directly on one of the wheels and connect that wheel to the other via a rod. We have had a lot of problems with the steering relay so we gladly discarded that idea and chose to make the cylinder work directly on one wheel. The cylinder is quite long, so we cut and rewelded and then moved the bracket from the steering box to be able to fix one end of the cylinder outside of the frame. I will post pictures when we finish.

I need help with the hydraulics again: It turned out things was not like I thought regarding this. It seems the return is not to the tank but back into the pump? See picture below, the pump is to the right and the valves are on the left:

A Pressure or return?

B Pressure or return?

C and D: In and out on cylinder 1

E and F: In and out on cylinder 2

Does anybody what is pressure and return, A or B? I think we need to run a line from the pressure outlet to inlet on the steering valve, and a line from the Power beyond outlet back up to the valves is this correct? I understand that this will make it impossible to operate the other two cylinders while we steer and that is not perfect, but that is something we have to live with I guess...

3263631129_a0eb50ea0f_b.jpg

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Ian928

Ok, we have now completed the installation, and the first impression is.... not good! :thumbs:

The steering is very heavy and it does not seem to differ if we increase rpms or if the tractor is moving or standing still.

I have made a scetch of how we have connected the cylinder. For reference, the drawing is based on the picture I posted earlier, so OUT from the Hydro unoit on the scetch equals A on the picture and RET equals B on the picture.

Have we done anything wrong?

3300801094_3a65131ef3_o.jpg

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Mith

Does it feel notchy when you turn the wheel?

Assuming its connected correctly (which it appears to be in the diagram you posted) you may not be getting enough pressure or flow to the steering valve.

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Ian928

Does it feel notchy when you turn the wheel?

Assuming its connected correctly (which it appears to be in the diagram you posted) you may not be getting enough pressure or flow to the steering valve.

Hello again Mith! It does not feel notchy, it just feels heavy all the time. I believe we have done it correct IF it is correct that t port A is pressure and port B is return in the photo i posted earlier. If this is wrong, would we be able to steer at all? I am thinking maybe it is possible that we are manually pumping oil from the return line, but that would mean the aux line is getting pressure in the wrong direction... I am not sure if this is at all possible? I was planning to test the lift cylinder but this got me thinking i should not, as this may cause pressure int the return port of the steering valve if we had connected it wrong...

There must be oil in the system, because when the cylinder reaches its endpoints, the steering wheel stops momentarily.

Mith, I also posted a thread about this in the Wheel Horse area, you may read about it there also.

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