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ztnoo

Recommendations for woodruff key suppliers?

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JPWH

I was in a local Toro dealer last week and they had a box of woodruff keys of all sizes. I will be back in there when my pulley bolt gets in would you like me to pick up two for you and send them?

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ztnoo

Hank01,

If you would care to check to see what the dealer might have, I'd be happy to compensate you for whatever the parts and shipping costs total.

They would have to duplicate the dimensions listed in the pic below to be the correct woodruff keys for my GT 14 axles......and of course, .25" (1/4") thick.

Steve

 

56e5c9fe2b973_IMG_0523keydimensions.jpg.

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JAinVA

There is an E-bay listing currently for d200 axles that claim they are 1 1/8" and they appear to have 2" long keys.This makes sense.The taller tires on the GT14 and D series

require more torque to move the tractor.To keep the woodruff  you would have to  go to a bigger diameter cutter to increase the effective engagement lenghth of the key to hub.You could do the same thing by using a straight key but the tooling setup would be different than plunge cutting with a woodruff key cutter.If this makes sense then it

would be a simple and inexpensive upgrade for the manufacturer.Its all about pennies when dealing with manufacturing cost.Luck,JAinVA

Edited by JAinVA
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ztnoo

I've been thinking about this xxx xxxx woodruff key question at length......if for no other reason than it concerns what I'm doing and attempting to find parts for.

However, I think the information I'm generally poking around trying to find has relevance and can be applied to other applications.

I believe what JAinVA theorized about concerning wheel and tire size has enormous relevance.

Essentially the larger the radius, and by implication, diameter, a force is applied/transmitted through, the greater the loading on the turning axis.....it's the torque factor at work.

Thus, perhaps the need for increased woodruff key sizes as overall wheel/tire diameters are increased, especially as larger, higher hp engines were installed.

Is this a reasonable assumption on my part?

umm.gif.aaddcecffaf5df3864ca4a21ab162c66

 

OK, I know its VERBOTEN to list links specifically to other sites attempting to sell items.

However, I know of no rule or prohibition against providing specific search parameters, or a seller's name, for that matter.

So, given some inspiration by JAinVA, I went to xxxy, and searched around at length, concerning WH axles of 1 1/8" listed for sale.

After inputting "Wheel Horse rear axle shaft", several options were presented to me.

I recognized one of the sellers because within the last month or so, I have purchase spare GT 14 axles from the same tractor from this seller.

When I inputted the seller's name of "mattverdill" into the search, I was rendered WH axles he currently has listed for sale.

Imagine that!

 

This seller.......who is not linked, I would point out, has six 1 1/8" axles sets for sale. These axles were removed from the following tractors:

14 hp Automatic

D-200

416H

C145

C125

C120

 

Visually, because no key sizes are given, ONLY the D-200 woodruff keys (still shown in place in the axles) match the GT 14 woodruff keys.

All of the rest of the woodruff key appear to be smaller......I lay money on the table that they are smaller.

Curious how no one seems to know much about this topic of BIG WOODRUFF KEYS.

Hopefully I'm contributing to the knowledge base here at RS.

 

Steve

Edited by ztnoo
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JAinVA

Steve,

     You went to the same source I looked at.I did some quick scaling on the screen and came to the conclusion that the D200 keys were the same length as the GT 14 keys.

This makes sense as then the dealers would have fewer part types in stock.Based on the need for increased engagement length WH went with the most economical way

to do it.This might not help you get the key you need but at least there  IMHO  is a reason the keys are different.Luck JAinVA

JimAnderson

Gloucester,Va

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Martin

From what I remember when rebuilding my 1054, The 953/1054 axles use the 2" long key as well. The 953/1054 and GT14 hubs look the same to me. They are also significantly longer (cover more length of the axle) than any of the standard size 5 bolt hubs.

 

 

gallery_4321_61_641104.jpg

Edited by Martin
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JAinVA

Martin,

    I am not well versed on WHs pre C series so forgive the dumb question.What's the tire sizes on the 2 models listed.Do they have 15" rims.

JimAnderson

Gloucester,Va

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Martin

The 953 and 1054 used 15" wheels. 6.40-15 tires- you can just see the size in the left tire in pic above.

Edited by Martin
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ztnoo

My GT 14 four lug hubs have a bore length 4 5/16" + or- into which the axle is inserted.

A very considerable length which contributed greatly to the resistance I encountered attempting to remove those monsters 35 years after last being removed...
 

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Martin
8 minutes ago, ztnoo said:

My GT 14 four lug hubs have a bore length 4 5/16" + or- into which the axle is inserted.

A very considerable length which contributed greatly to the resistance I encountered attempting to remove those monsters 35 years after last being removed...
 

 

yes, I remember all too well the holding power of those long hubs!!

Edited by Martin
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ztnoo

It's good to know I'm not alone in my angst and misery concerning these hubs.....

But I am over the hub torture now, and focused on these mysterious woodruff keys.

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gwest_ca
10 hours ago, ztnoo said:

focused on these mysterious woodruff keys.

You could order the 937046 key from Toro.

 

Garry

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ztnoo

Garry

That's interesting info, but I don't see any description of the key dimensions when using that part number.

Without the dimensions being given, how does one know this is the correct part?

How do you know this is the right part?

 

From what I've seen, this pretty well defines the extent to which Toro goes to describe parts. The same seems hold true for RCPW. All one gets returned is "woodruff key" with no specifics.

Am I missing something here? How do you know this is the key I'm looking for?

What's really odd to me is that the woodruff keys aren't even shown in the original illustrated parts diagrams or listed in the numbered parts lists.

You wouldn't even know that part is used in the assembly from simply examining the illustrated diagrams.

That's what lead me to believe it was generic, non-proprietary part from the day the machine(s) were manufactured.

On top of that, the pricing Toro lists for this part is significantly more than any other source I've run across so far.

Regards,

Steve

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gwest_ca

I think we only have two original parts list for the GT-14 and they are for the same model number.

The Woodruff key 937046 is illustrated on the page showing the rear wheel/tire and hub.

 

If you go to a D-Series Automatic parts list it is also shown on the parts list only for the rear wheel/tire. No item number.

1054 also used it and shown on the transmission page.

Some online lists show it used on a Lawn Ranger because Toro messed up and have D-Series Auto parts listed for that particular Lawn Ranger model.

 

Toro is proud of their parts and charge accordingly.

 

Garry

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ztnoo

Garry,

I will concede you are right.....those woodruff keys are in the diagrams and in the numerical parts list.........I just plain missed them. Duh!

I will agree wholeheartedly TORO is extremely proud of those woodruff keys when they are priced at $7.30 eachhttps://www.torodealer.com/en-us/Pages/Search.aspx?k=937046

RCPW is nearly as proud of their keys also, when priced at $6.31 eachhttps://www.rcpw.com/search/?quest=937046

 

The good news this morning for me is Fastenal finally shipped a sample key to a local store within my county which I picked up and just verified it is the same key as OEM, and it fits perfectly in the axle key slot.

Price including 7% IN sales tax: $1.31 each.

More detail to follow later.

 

Steve

Edited by ztnoo
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JAinVA

Steve,

   Pays to shop around.Sounds like you are on your way.Luck,JAinVA

JimAnderson

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roadapples

For that price you might want to get a few more and squirrel them away..:handgestures-thumbupright:

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Martin

Just another example of good shopping around. I used to support my local Toro dealer all the way, but some of the prices just made it an expensive proposition when rebuilding a whole tractor. 

 

I have learnt that its better to seek out the original manufacturers for a lot of these parts, Toro and Wheelhorse before them, didn't make everything. They used oem suppliers just like lots of other companies. I have found some real bargains by finding out which company made the part or had the contract for the part. Sometimes, its just a simple process of looking at the manufacturers name stamped or molded in the part and google searching. You would be amazed at what bargains can be had over Toro pricing.

 

One such example that comes to mind is the rubber hood catches on the 3,4,500 series and many other 80s and 90s Wheel horse models.   http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/43225-416-adventures/?page=14#comment-438994

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ztnoo

Gentlemen,

Well, I knew these parts had to be "out there", it was just a matter of researching and pounding the keys, and to some extent the pavement to find them. Woodruff keys are a generic hardware type item, maybe not quite as everyday items as flat/lock washers, lag bolts, and 16d common nails, but widely used. Not being able to buy exactly what you need at your hometown corner hardware store, doesn't mean they are "unobtainium", you just have to keep digging until you uncover the Mother Lode.

 

The Fastenal connection is without doubt the best choice for a supplier of these keys I have yet found, mostly because of their huge geographic reach with "2,700 stores spanning all 50 states and 20-plus nations".

The beauty of this is most of the population here in the US have a Fastenal retail outlet within a reasonable distance of wherever they live. I have one within 1 1/2 miles of my house, and another about 10 miles away. So for me, is like going to Vegas and seeing how the dice roll......if things aren't working in one game room, I pick up my chips and go to "the other casino".

 

If you communicate with a local store and they don't have the item you are seeking in stock, they'll get it shipped from another Fastenal outlet or warehouse to your local store. From what I can tell, shipping cost me absolutely nothing. I think this is true with a least items of reasonable size and weight......thus I avoided the dreaded shipping charge, which, as many of you know all too well when you buy from Toro, RCPW, eBay, or almost anywhere, which is the real "bummer" part of any deal. If you don't need much in the way of quantity or total cost, often the shipping and handling charges exceeds the cost of the items being purchased. I don't know about the rest of you, but I get absolutely steamed and go into a slow burn when that happens. Sometimes it's just absolutely ridiculous, but often you have no other options if you have to have the item. What's WRONG with this picture?.......you can buy almost anything you want, need, or could ever hope to find here in the continental US, but when shipping charges exceed purchases by sometimes as much as 3 times, there's either gross inefficiency ruling the day to cover glutenous infrastructure, or obscene and unashamed profit taking occurring.

Just my twocents.gif.cfc9fdc90a98d97cc01a525e6e3, and one man's option.

 

Anyway, I'll dismount my speech-making soapbox, relinquish my bullhorn, and present the facts......"just the facts, Mame".

 

1/4" x 2-3/4" Key No: RX Woodruff Key

Fastenal Part No. (SKU): 69352

Grade:1035

Key Number:RX

Length:2-3/4"

Material:Steel

Style:Half Moon

Type:Woodruff Key

Width:1/4"

Product Weight:0.064 lbs.

https://www.fastenal.com/products/raw-materials/keyed-shafts-keys/woodruff-keys?term=woodruff+key&r=~|categoryl1:%22600930%20Raw%20Materials%22|~%20~|categoryl2:%22612385%20Keyed%20Shafts%209and%20Keys%22|~%20~|categoryl3:%22601145%20Woodruff%20Keys%22|~%20~|sattr03:^1/4%22$|~%20~|attrlength:1610|~

 

IMG_0553a.jpg.a4de15a3cc6f71694f24d183a1  IMG_0554a.jpg.881132902b420b48d044bbcefb

 

Left: OEM installed woodruff key, left axle   Right: Fastenal supplied duplicate woodruff key, # 69352

IMG_0558a.jpg.6fa3920658294d693717ef3a9a

 

Find your local Fastenal store here:  https://www.fastenal.com/locations

Any questions, Gentlemen?
 
Regards,
Steve
wavetowel2.gif.ee2e90dedbb02c422884fcfa3
 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ztnoo
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Aldon

Nice. While I don't need any currently, for that price I snag a couple the next time I go into Fastenal for something as a just in case item.

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ztnoo

Mr. T,

I told you I was a researcher who often focused on minutia.

Hopefully this has been a beneficial exercise for the good of the forum membership.

My advice is to call, and order before showing up at the store unannounced, on the spur of the moment. SVP.

That might avoid some aggravations.

 

From prior experience,

Steve

2tu.gif.157c3b2d26ede2808b049cbb040d84ed

 

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JAinVA

ztnoo,

          Thanks for sharing the quest with us all.I would never have believed that something as simple as a woodruff key would generate this much interest or discussion.I guess it proves that its the little things in life that matter.I look forward to seeing your future posts here and am truly happy that you got  your Moby Dick after all. Luck,JAinVa

JimAnderson

Gloucester,Va

Edited by JAinVA
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ztnoo

I had a very large harpoon, a steadfast captain, and my aim was true......the rest was totally instinct......

Thank you very much for your positive reinforcement and kudos.

I am a very happy camper this evening.

 

top.jpg.f3cfcc0aec62a1aac99c35757e8d45ea

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JAinVA

Kindred spirits thanks for sharing.JAinVA

Edited by JAinVA

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ztnoo

Addendum to the woodruff key search:

 

I'd like to comment on another source for these woodruff keys, but unlike my Fastenal "find", this one proved not nearly as rosy and positive in the end.

While I was in the midst of gyrations getting a sample woodruff key shipped to one of the two Fastenal stores in my county to be able to physically compare with my one good woodruff key, I ran across another promising looking source with the G.L. Huyett company of Minneapolis, KS.
Aldon had pointed them out in a thread, but I had run across the web site earlier in my search for the monster woodruff keys I needed.
I was astounded by the huge variety of hardware and goods the company listed. It was quite pervasive in its selection of materials.
Have a look for yourself, I think you will be impressed.........  https://www.huyett.com/
So over the weekend, still not knowing anything definitive from Fastenal, I took a leap of faith and ordered two keys because I was 99 44/100% certain what Huyett listed would work for my application.
https://www.huyett.com/Products/Power-Transmission/Machine-Keys/Woodruff-Keys/WKA-0RX?searchText=

Price: $1.3141 each.

Sounds petty good, eh?
I ordered last Saturday, March 12.

Let me preface the rest of my story with a well known Roman phrase, caveat emptor. Of course this is defined as "Let the buyer beware". This is a concept that most people are cognizant of and typically attuned to watch for.
* The phrase caveat emptor arises from the fact that buyers typically have less information about the good or service they are purchasing, while the seller has more information. The quality of this situation is known as 'information asymmetry'. Defects in the good or service may be hidden from the buyer, and only known to the seller. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor

Never having ordered from the site before I didn't know exactly how the checkout procedure would go, but I went with the flow assuming at the end of the process I'd get a totaled price, shipping included and based on my zip code, then I could decide to hit the "Buy" button or not. Well that didn't happen. As a matter of fact, I didn't even get the typical quick automated email acknowledging my order of two woodruff keys with all the pertinent charges. I thought that was a bit strange at the time, but I saw nothing else I could do at that point. A little unusual. Now I see why.

So, Monday morning I get an email with a pdf attachment described as an "Order Acknowledgement". In that document was my order for the two keys which totaled $2.63, but additionally attached was a "Small Order Handling Fee" of $10.00.
I thought that was a little on the excessive side, but again at that point in the process, I obviously had no control or say over that charge. So, I 'm thinking well they'll stick those keys in small mailing envelope, send them USPS, and I'll probably have them about Wednesday, March 16.
So today, March 16, I get another email from a different Huyett employee, with a pdf  "Invoice" attachment. Within this document are the above charges PLUS a freight charge (UPS) of $10.50! Say What??? You gotta be kiddin' me!
Turns out Huyett has lots of legalese and small print which isn't readily apparent to or made known to a first time buyer in particular. I never recall seeing it anywhere in my ordering procedure.
So, the short story is that Steve got the short end of the stick and the joke is on him. The two absolutely wonderful Huyett keys are now costing me the grand sum of  $23.13, or $11.56 1/2 each!
I find that outrageous and repulsive, to say the least. I feel like I've been raped. It was the process and it's secretive nature I feel is what was abusive and underhanded. If the true cost information had been provided to me up front, I never would have ordered from The Hardware Highness G.L. Huyett. They also made no effort to use the cheapest means of delivery, which I find ridiculous.


I am appalled and made my feelings known to several email addresses at Huyett, including the CEO. I received a cursory reply from a company vice president which did nothing to rinse the rancid taste from my mouth of dealing with this company. It kind of reminded me of all those legal documents Microsoft and all of the big software and hardware developers make you affirm for the right to use their products........the documents that will take a couple of hours to actually read and maybe comprehend, if you are lucky.
Live and learn, sometimes the hard way.

Needless to say, I'm done with G.L. Huyett.
If any of you here choose to give them a try ........all I'm going to say is "caveat emptor".
Once the keys arrive, if they don't fit, I'm really going to be ticked off....as if I'm not already.

 

Steve

Edited by ztnoo

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      leakage area circled

       
      leakage area circled

       
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      So the short of it is, I bought the truck because it was in excellent shape for a 1990 model with reasonable mileage given its age, and Manny drove the station wagon while I followed in the S15 and we went back north across across the bridge over the Ohio River leading the way back to his place east of Jeffersonville. Generally speaking, the theory "move your feet, lose your seat" applies to CL items, because they can move very quickly and you usually have to have your ducks lined up and be ready to act promptly, or there's a high risk of losing your chance. With Manny's help and assistance, I was able to achieve my goal.
      Manny let me park the truck at his house until I can draft a friend into a day road trip to go retrieve my little S15 jewel later this week. When we got back to his place and he showed me his Wheel Horse collection and ongoing projects and we philosophized about life a bit before I left.
       
      Manny is a great caring and helpful person with a warm and outgoing soul. He has considerable health issues for a male of 56 years of age, but he does his best not to allow that to distract his quality of life and daily routine. I now consider him to be a friend and buddy and not just a correspondent........having met through our mutual interest in Wheel Horses, GT 14s in particular.

       
      Steve
      ___________________________
      Manny & me.

       
      Manny in front of my purchase.

       
      My "new" S15.

       
       
    • ztnoo
      By ztnoo
      I've discovered the main engine pulley driving the hydro pump seems to be a bit loose.
      I need to pull the clutch and associated pulleys off to have a look at what's going on back there.
      May be just a loosened allen screw mounting the pulley, a bad key, a bad pulley bore, or some combination of all three.
      Is the clutch mounting bolt going into the crankshaft a right hand thread, or a left hand thread?
       
      Anyone have a quick answer?
       
      Steve
    • ztnoo
      By ztnoo
      I have a Kohler K341 on a GT 14 tractor.
      Its always had the typical .....what are they called?........pepper shaker muffler? on the tractor.
      I've had to replace them several times....they seem to just eventually burn up.
      I can honestly say even from day one whenever I installed a new muffler of this type, I really couldn't tell that it really muffled much noise, maybe a little, but very little.
      As usage time goes on, they all got nothing but louder.
      Of course, part of this is the sheer displacement of the motor......35.9 cu. in. = 588 cc. Think of it in terms of a slightly bored out Norton Manx 500 cc thumper with an open megaphone exhaust. Deafening! You don't want to be standing 8 or 10' behind a Manx when it being warmed up and the throttle is being "blipped" to do that, without ear protection.
      These older flat head engines seem to be much louder than the newer OHV engines which are common in lots of equipment now.
       
      I've owned and used this tractor for 35 years now, and I guess I'm beginning to become somewhat of a crotchety old senior, but its becoming annoying to me (the operator), and I in fact had one neighbor that ragged me out over the noise.
      It may be because they have a pool and spend a fair amount of time outside, and the pool is about 10-11 feet from a chain link fence that divides the properties.
      I'm really not that worried about the neighbor nearly as much as I am myself, or should I say my hearing.
      I already have hearing loss from years of firing pneumatic nail guns and listening to compressors and heavy machinery running on job sites.
       
      What are you other K341 owners using and doing to get more muffling accomplished?
      Surely there has to be a more reasonable solution which will allow you to hear yourself think after an hour or hour and a half of operation.
      Is there a viable, positive solution for this problem so my ears and head don't ring for an hour after just mowing my lawn?
       
      Regards,
      Steve
    • ztnoo
      By ztnoo
      As many of you know, I've been in a prolonged battle with the rear hubs, woodruff keys, and oil seals on my 1969 GT 14, Model # 1-7441.
      I'm to the point of installing the new SKF oil seals today as soon as I can round up one more PVC fitting to properly size it to my seals for tap in installation.
      After that, its spin on the new NAPA 1410 hydraulic filter, and then fill with ATF.
       
      When I drained the tranny, I measured and computed the volume of ATF taken.
      It was right at 128 oz. + or - maybe two ounces. The volume spec says 4 qts. (4 qts. = 1 gallon = 128 oz.)
      So I know I was within spec, and wasn't losing large amounts of fluid, although I have a couple of random minor seepage locations on the tractor.......mostly around the control value which raises and lowers the mower deck.
      ATF is always what has been in the tranny, so that's what's going back in.
      My reason for caution regarding what to use specifically is probably more a matter of jargon and my understanding of terminology than anything.
      Of course, since my GT 14 was a first model year tractor, Type A transmission fluid was specified in all the literature.
      Type A is no longer available, but it my understanding is that equates with Dextron II.
       
      But isn't Dextron II now an outdated designation?
      If so, what should I be putting back into this Sundstrand  90-2062 tranny to ensure continued adequate trouble-free lubrication???
      I have more than a little angst over wanting to make sure I used the right product in this transmission.
      The changes in products over the years makes it very confusing for those of us who only occasionally wander in and out of discussions like this and automotive/mechanical related jargon and word usage generally.
       
      So gentlemen, what are your specific recommendations on tranny fluid to use in my Sundstrand, and is there any particular brand any of you favor over another?
      Or is it pretty much the case that ATF is ATF is ATF, the world around?
       
      Looking forward to your suggestions and recommendations.
       
      Regards,
      Steve
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