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buffcleb

18 Auto PTO issue

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buffcleb

We have an 18 Auto that hasn't got much use... this year we started it back up and wanted to use the tiller we got with it... We have never used it before... 

 

The PTO seems to not be disengage... I have to feather the engagement lever in order to keep power... I have tried to adjust it but am not able to get it right... 

 

The lever from the pulleys also seems to flop down to the side... I did a youtube video showing what its doing

 

 

There is plenty of clutch material so I do not think that is my issue

 

I have some pics of the PTO here https://www.flickr.com/photos/89866486@N02/sets/72157644435834760/

 

Looking at the video I think I am going to do another on my next trip down to the cabin with my camera facing the PTO... might provide more insight

Edited by buffcleb

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Trouty56

Check the pivot pin at the bottom of the PTO.....

 

gallery_1933_124_258345.jpg

Edited by Trouty56
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"D"- Man

I second Bob's recommendation. Here are a couple pics of my 18 Automatic without the clutch and pulley, so you can see the hook assembly (pivot pin) in the bearing plate on my K582, Mark.

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buffcleb

thanks... so I think ours doesn't have a pivot pin

 

14084434968_800ea73aa4_n.jpg

 

There is a bolt where the pin is supposed to be... so I guess I'll hunt for the pin

 

thanks everyone...

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Hodge71

I have the same tractor and have needed to rebuild mine completely. Need less to say I know it pretty well because of that. I will do my best to address your symptoms one at a time and give you something to check...at least from my dealings with these pieces of iron. Along with Bobs recommendation of your hook assembly being in tact also check the following things...

 

First you complaint on the actuator rod hitting the intake and the "return spring" missing. There is no return spring for this PTO system. The lever is your return and there is a small brake band attached to the front that stops the PTO from turning when not engaged. If your rod is hitting, bend it until it doesn't hit the intake. I had to do mine. Proper adjustment of the clutch is when fully engaged the washer on the fronton the trunnion is able to be spun by your finger. Then you know you have it tightened correctly for proper engagement and full power transmission.

 

As I'm watching you engage and disengage the PTO the first thing I see is that your lever is moving entirely too much. I believe that the ears on your collar assembly have either worn or came out of the engagement bar. It should never move to the extent your is to have engagement. Also a problem is the bearing in the collar assembly. Mine went bad and ate the surface of the shaft where the bearing rides. This bearing #102914 is a proprietary bearing. It has an SKF number on it but cannot be purchased from them. Its Toro only and runs $129. I am going to turn the bearing surface on the shaft down and friction fit a sleeve on it which will allow me to use a common metric bearing. The other thing to worry about with all the motion you have going on is the 4 beveled washers that live in the clutch pulley. Its sounds as if they have lost their spring and aren't retaining the proper pressure on both the front and rear clutch facing. 

 

Next thing you claim is "there's plenty of clutch facing left...only found 1 crack" ....which face is cracked?...theres 2 clutch faces on this tractor..a front and a rear... There may be plenty left but once its glazed or gets oil soaked it wont grip at all...ask me how I know... you will need to pull it off and if you're lucky, clean it with a ton of brake clean and then scuff it with 60 grit sand paper on a piece of glass or other extremely plat and true surface. Also...cracks lead me to believe it was overheated...it shouldn't crack under normal usage. I believe you have no choice but to tear it off. You have some serious issues that need to be addressed internally on that entire assembly. Mine was turning a 60 in deck from a 520 and it never stalled the way you tiller is stalling the PTO.

 

You also should be running that tractor wide open at all times. You're killing the hydro unit and the engine isn't receiving proper cooling unless its run at full throttle. The engines are governed accordingly to have peak power at WOT.

 

Any other questions..ask away or PM me...and good luck to you...you're gonna need it as much of this stuff is NLA from Toro

Edited by hodge71
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buffcleb

hodge71 - thanks... I'm going to start with putting a pivot pin in place... without it the only think it can pivot on is the pins on the bearing carrier. I'm going to pull the clutch and check the bearings first try greasing them and if that doesn't help order the replacement... heck with the price of the replacement I might just look at changing it to an electric clutch :) anyone ever do that?

 

If I stick with this clutch I'll replace the clutch surfaces and the brake pad... 

 

thanks for the info about running it full throttle... this is our only hydro tractor and our only air cooled one... didn't know about that... we have had this tractor for a couple of years but probably put less then 10 hours on it in that time. 

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Hodge71

Its a great example of an original tractor. You're going to love it once you get her running right. I know how you feel about the oil burning. Mine has its original engine in it and running that 60 inch deck is making it use roughly a quart or a bit more every 10 hours of mowing. I would love to get it rebuilt but there aren't many parts for them and I was told that it would be 2 grand in my area. The only thing that keeps going through my head is it will get more expensive the longer I wait. Do your best to keep her running. Ask lots of questions here and if you ever want to sell it, let me know. Im definitely interested in the tiller and possibly the whole package. Even if it years from now.

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buffcleb

This is our only small tractor at our country place. I plan modify the deck and add an anti-scalping wheel to the front left corner of the deck. Our land is rather uneven and it frequently digs in... Other then that I plan to leave it pretty much as is... We picked it up about 4 years ago on a whim and it doesn't get used very often... we would like to change that... We do most of our mowing with a larger international 240 with a 6 foot finish mower but for the half acre around our buildings its a bit cumbersome :)

 

We mow about 5 acres in total... so the 6 foot mower and the speed of the larger tractor is nice... 

 

As to the engine I might just hunt around for another k482 or whole tractor for parts and then have that motor rebuilt and then swap them... we will see... 

 

I also have a wheel horse 603 waiting for attention at my city place.... need to find a original motor and do a frame weld, replace a leaking seal in the transmission... and maybe open it up and fix forth gear (pops out)... right now it has a newer motor but I'd like to get it back to stock... it also has a set of gear reduction pulleys so getting forth gear back would be nice :)

 

thanks again for your help...

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buffcleb

side question... what do you guys run for mufflers... our are shot and I'd like to replace them...

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Hodge71

I did a 2 into 1 with a Gravely muffler and a stack and rain flapper on top. Most guys here have done the same. Look at Trouty's pic up top...basically the same set up as him. I remember someone trying to use cub mufflers and cutting them down and rewelding them but if I recall he spent about a hundred bucks and it didnt work, There may be others who have ideas but this worked and looks good too.

Edited by hodge71

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buffcleb
OK... I'm going to keep this updated as much for advise as to help anyone else who searches and finds this thread
 
We pulled the PTO and checked things out. I have a video here showing things
 
 
Here are my clutch plates. I need to decide if I should replace the facing material 
 
14130843228_b35a702f60_c.jpg
 
14316870224_753b3099bd_c.jpg
 
the PTO bearings look to have no play and sling freely. I thought there were greasable  and might see if I can get a needle fitting into the side to add some but otherwise they are good to go.
 
The next big question for me is what to do on the crank bearing carrier. 
 
I have a replacement coming
 
14133307170_5ffac98467_c.jpg
 
14133388167_f14591c1a7_c.jpg
 
So I need to decide between these options. 
 
  • drill and tap current hole out
  • remove the four bolts and rotate the plate 90 degrees and use the good hole
  • pull the bearing carrier and use my replacement. 
 
I'd rather do option 3... just a little worried about opening things up.
 
Along with the video above I do keep a blog and am logging all this there
 
 
I'd love to hear everyones thoughts on both the clutch plates and the crank bearing plate/pto pivot pin... 
 
thanks
Edited by buffcleb

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"D"- Man

I do not recommend turning the bearing plate 90 degrees because if I am not mistaken there is an oil drain back valley located at the bottom of the bearing plate.  This allows the oil (that gets between the front side of the bearing and the back side of the bearing plate) to drain back into the oil pan.

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buffcleb

thanks... good to know...

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Trouty56

I would try to drill it out first....that bearing plate has a series of gasket shims to correct end play (I guess this is the correct term....) and you may need a gasket kit.  The gasket kit comes with a bunch of different thicknesses of them.  I used the same combinations of shims as what was there originally....  For what this is worth....maybe not too much....dunno!!!

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buffcleb

I am leaning towards doing that first... but may I ask... how did you determine which thickness gaskets were used? are they labeled... were you able to read them... I know from doing carbs the gaskets are frequently so junky after removing them that it would be hard to figure out what is there...

 

thanks

Edited by buffcleb

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Trouty56

they are different colors.....or should I say...shades....


you can tell by feeling them also....

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alswagg

Is your PTO belt tight?  Seem simple, but it is easy to tension correctly.  In your first picture, I noticed the belt was not on the pully correctly. Hmmm  maybe  a simple problem.  The belt should go on the inner grove on the crank pulley and then go to the larger PTO pulley shaft.  This will generally give a .5 ratio PTO to crank rpm.    Al

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buffcleb

I got it back together... and tilled... then the coupler between the PTO and tiller lost the ball bearings that held it in place... more fun :)

 

did a video of me putting it back together and the tilling...

 

 

that was fun... I first drilled and tapped it for 3/8... which was wrong... had to go and get a 7/16 tap... a note the auto-zone taps are awful... but it was the only place around... I got the pivot in... I am going to replace the clutch surfaces this year... but at least its working...

 

After this run I swapped in a newer coil and re-gapped the points... they were way tighter then .020... maybe .015... they looked good though...

 

You can also see in that video the level of smoking I get... a little on startup... then it clears up... on that cylinder (left side if sitting on seat) the valve cover has some oil seep on it... so I'm thinking the valves are leaking... I'm going to do a compression test next weekend... and try a leak down test... I want to get a new gasket for the valve cover before I open it up...

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buffcleb

Next question... I'm going to try our local place for clutch facing material... does anyone know how thick the material is? I know I can order it online for around $30 for each face but going to check locally first and see if its any cheaper...

 

thanks 

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Hodge71

I just replaced both faces and paid $21 each and 16 centes each for the 8 brass rivets that hold the facing onfrom my local Horse dealer. I cant believe theres that big of a descrepancy between online and real life

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