12 Automatic hard to start when out of gas.

[Patrick Reese 40]

Just got a '73 12 Automatic (no name) with a Kohler 12hp. It runs great, has plenty of power. Overall a super nice tractor. However, I have two acres and a tank of gas doesn't cut it. This isn't my primary mower, but since it's new I've been playing with it. I've run it empty twice now and I have a devil of a time getting it to pickup up and pump gas again. Since the carb is horizontal it doesn't really lend itself to a trickle of gas in the carb to get it to spin fast and pump gas. I've used a bit of ether (but I don't like to use it and it causes the engine to knock) and even with spritzing some ether in it sparingly it seems to take a long time to get it going again (repeated tries). I would have thought that since the tank is much higher than the fuel pump that gravity would have played a bigger role.

 

Any ideas? Is this normal? Could the pump be weak? Once running it runs great and doesn't ever seem to stumble even under a load and the fuel filter usually seems full. Is this a common nuisance with the Kohler 12 in a 12 Automatic? At this rate I'm going to get an eye dropper and keep it handy for some gas in the throat of the carb rather than ether.. ugh.

[Trouty56 565]

I would schedule a pit stop at the 1 acre mark.....

[tbbahner 27]

Go to WallyWorld and get some cheap aerosol carb cleaner to use as starter fluid instead of ether! I've heard too many bad stories about ether knocking holes in pistons, breaking cranks, etc.

Your pump might be getting weak but probably not. You can take the gas line between the pump and carb off, turn it over to see if it spurts gas.

You can take the gas cap off and blow into the tank to pressurize it and move gas through the line so it doesn't have to pump so long to move the gas to the carb. Inhale BEFORE blowing into the tank or you'll be wandering around out in the yard for a while, and remember to put the cigarette out. .

The shutoff valve at the tank might be partially clogged. Disconnect the fuel line at the fuel filter or pump and make sure you're getting good flow.

Might be time to clean the carb, but if it runs good its probably ok. You can pull the carb bowl off and check for gunk, debris, etc. pretty easy, w/o pulling the whole carb off..

Put in a new spark plug!

If the fuel system is in good order, check the points. They might need to be filed, gapped, or replaced. An old mechanic told me not to used sand paper on points as the heat of the spark can crystalize the sand and make them not fire right. I've  used it it and never seemed to have a problem, just sayin. Then go to timing.

Others will chime in with better suggestions I'm sure.

Good luck.

 

 

 

[Patrick Reese 40]

Thanks for the replies..

Pit Stop.. hmm wonder if I can enlist my son as pit crew? I think not, he'd rather be driving!

I'll try the cheap carb cleaner suggestion, since as I mentioned I really don't like using ether especially when I hear it making the engine knock.

Not thinking that the pump is weak since as I mentioned it doesn't even stumble under heavy load. But still can't rule it out. Seems to me that gas should start flowing fairly quickly. Partially clogged tank screen, or shut off valve that's a could be.. I'll have to look into that.

As to other things on list. It just starts from cold and runs way too well to be any tuneup issues such as carb dirty or out of adjustment, bad points, timing etc.. the only issue is when it runs out of gas.

[swarfeater 49]

i pop the gas cap, take a deep breath and blow some pressure into the tank. About 10 seconds and the pump and carb are full and it starts just like i did not forget to keep it full.

[GlenPettit 1,714]

I have the same type of trouble with my Stihl Chain Saw, -- as soon as I hear the first sousnd of it running out of gas, I must stop.  If I do let it totally run out of gas, and then fill, it's a devil to try and start it up again;  was told that there are several spots/places in the system that air gets trapped and just won't let the gas flow through without a lot of effort and wiggling (kinda like a vacuum trap; both ends of the fuel system must be open so the pump can suck).  

Those 0-turn mowers have a huge and/or a second tank to go all day.

The above suggestion on checking the Tank Screen would be the first thing I'ld check  (with an empty tank, power VACUUM the inside, lot easier than pulling out the plug/screen).

Good Luck.

[Hodge71 662]

Patrick,

 

I have the same tractor and used it many times to cut 2 acres or more. My Dad bought it brand new in November of '73. It has never run out of fuel unless the grass was way high and we had the factory lawn vacuum on it. There has to be some underlying issue that you're not getting the mileage so to speak. The factory is at least 2 1/2 gallons if memory serves me correctly. Also, when it has run out of fuel it starts back up within 3 revolutions of cranking with the choke on. The only reason I say with the choke, is that even though the motor is hot you need the choke to richen the mixture up til it fires. Once its popping I take the choke off and it runs just fine....literally only 2 seconds to start. It could be a weak pump. You sound very educated with small engines and I have no doubt you'll track down the issue. Also there is no tank screen in the factory 73 tanks. The red tanks only had a nipple in the bottom with a piece of rubber line that ran over to the left side hood stand where the shut off was permanently mounted. The line then went from there to the factory metal filter and onto the carb. Hows the battery? Is it the correct battery? I ask only because I just bought a 74 C-160 8 speed last month and it had tons of problems starting even after the P.O. put a brand new battery in it. He was completely lost. I put the proper car battery in it and its fine now that its got the proper amperage. I may need to adjust the valves but it is fine for now. 

Edited September 4, 2013 by hodge71

[Patrick Reese 40]

Again thanks for all the input. Lots for me to weigh in on.

As to mileage.. I'm at fault there. The red tank is dark and I was being careful when adding fuel not to over fill it. I didn't fill it all the way up. First time it ran out of fuel my son was running it and enjoying the heck out of it.. makin' a big carbon footprint if you know what I mean. (which is not to say I'm a tree hugger.. it just sounded good). The second time was when I didn't fill it all the way up. The battery in it is brand spanking. Plenty of power, and plenty of spin time. Previous owner told me it's a hard to find Ford Mustang (car) battery? Well! Talk about an Equine lineage..

I have tried the ole pull the choke out and get it to start trick. That works well on my other lawn machines. Heck on my Gravely ProMaster I can tell when it's running low on fuel, pull the choke halfway out and usually drive it back to the pits for a refuel. The Horse just stops dead in it's tracks.. (maybe I need to get used to the sounds it makes before hand). Again thanks for all the different views. I think when I get time I'm going to pull the lines and check for flow. Then possibly address the fuel pump. It must not be pulling enough vacuum to get the gas flowing. That's my first guess so far! Second would be restricted shut off valve..

[Don1977 604]

Sound like a weak fuel pump. Could also be the screen inside the tank on the shut-off is stop up. Have you replace the fuel lines they could also be causing the problem as the old lines were not designed for fuel with alcohol.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Don1977

[Patrick Reese 40]

Ethanol... oh yeah. That stuff. Well that could be wreaking havoc on the fuel pump!! Fuel lines look good.

[SousaKerry 500]

Another old trick is to loosen the fuel line up on the fuel pump to let any air escape from the line.  Kind of like priming an old water pump

[Patrick Reese 40]

Another old trick is to loosen the fuel line up on the fuel pump to let any air escape from the line.  Kind of like priming an old water pump

 

That's really not an option. I'm certain that these machines were not designed to have to do that when they ran out of fuel. Will try to get a replacement for the fuel pump, check out gas flow at the out side of the fuel shut off and take it from there.

[squonk 38,844]

I installed an electric pump on my C-160. Problem solved

[953 nut 51,495]

  If you can get ahold of a pre 1966 fuel pump they have a primer lever on them, give it a couple of pumps and it will prime the carb. I have them on all my  . If they sit for a while it only takes a couple of pumps and it starts right up. You can find them on Ebay from time to time.

 

 

 

 

[Patrick Reese 40]

  If you can get ahold of a pre 1966 fuel pump they have a primer lever on them, give it a couple of pumps and it will prime the carb. I have them on all my  . If they sit for a while it only takes a couple of pumps and it starts right up. You can find them on Ebay from time to time.

 

 

 

 

Now that sounds like a plan!

[Martin 2,130]

i really would rather not run out of gas. if at all possible fill again before running out. when you have to crank it and it takes longer than normal to start, youre just wearing stuff out quicker.  batteries, starter etc etc. the pumps also deteriorate quicker if they run dry. better just to not let it happen.....

these kohlers can run just fine with less than perfect fuel system parts, it sounds like yours runs ok while its running. they can be a bear to get back going again if they run out of gas while hot. vapor lock could be a problem, too. 

just my opinion. not trying to tell you what to do or anything like that, its your tractor, but for me it would solve your problem by just coming back and filling it when you get to a point that its getting low.....

[tunahead72 2,332]

I would schedule a pit stop at the 1 acre mark.....

 

I'm with Bob and Martin on this one.  You can avoid all the hassle of having to prime the pump by simply not letting your tank run out of gas.

 

Assuming everything is OK with your engine, somebody (SOI?) recently estimated that a Kohler K241 (I think) would run about 40 minutes on a gallon of gas, your K301 should be close to that.  I don't quite understand the theory behind that conclusion, but it matches pretty well with what I get from both of my K241 engines.  So, if you have a 2-1/2 gallon tank, are you getting close to 100 minutes, or an hour and 40 minutes, before you completely run out of gas?  If so, that's about as good as you can expect, and you should just plan a rest break sometime before that point.  If not, then you can start looking for causes for your excessive fuel consumption.

[Patrick Reese 40]

 

I would schedule a pit stop at the 1 acre mark.....

 

I'm with Bob and Martin on this one.  You can avoid all the hassle of having to prime the pump by simply not letting your tank run out of gas.

 

Assuming everything is OK with your engine, somebody (SOI?) recently estimated that a Kohler K241 (I think) would run about 40 minutes on a gallon of gas, your K301 should be close to that.  I don't quite understand the theory behind that conclusion, but it matches pretty well with what I get from both of my K241 engines.  So, if you have a 2-1/2 gallon tank, are you getting close to 100 minutes, or an hour and 40 minutes, before you completely run out of gas?  If so, that's about as good as you can expect, and you should just plan a rest break sometime before that point.  If not, then you can start looking for causes for your excessive fuel consumption.

 

Well let me just say this...

 

My Theme song in High School was Jackson Brown's "Runnin' on Empty".. nuff said?

[Patrick Reese 40]

But on a serious note. Of course keeping the tank full and not running out of fuel is the ideal. But it doesn't always work out that way, no matter how we try. When it does happen, I would hope that it would start back up with relative ease. This coming weekend, I'll do some looking, poking around, testing and see what I can come up with.

[tunahead72 2,332]

Nothing wrong with spending some quality time with your Wheel Horse.

 

By the way, just noticed, where are you in Pennsylvania?  Or did I ask you that already?

[Patrick Reese 40]

I'm in Warrington. Been to Phoenixville many times. Have a friend there and been to Blobfest more times than I can remember. I even have a row (4 seats) of the original Balcony seats from the Colonial! and a 35mm copy of 4D man in it's original can marked up for the Colonial that was buried in one of the rooms upstairs. It's pretty much salad dressing (vinegar) now but it's still cool.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Patrick Reese

[Pullstart 59,543]

hey what about using a boat tank primer bulb inline with your current setup?

[MalMac 1,328]

Having a hard time getting a Horse to refire after the tank has been empty is not all that unusual. The tractors with the rear tank can be a bear. I have on a regular basis have had to fill the gas line up or what you would call prime to get it to start drawing gas. Just recently I had to do that when replacing a gas line and the tractor had a new pump on it. The pumps are not a what you would call a high volume high pressure pump. Even some with tanks that are high up like the pre 78's will even have trouble from time to time. Yes there could be other causes like a clog somewhere or weak pump but the problem of getting one to draw from a  tank that has been run dry is a not so a unusual problem. That many people run into. Nature of the beast.

Edited September 5, 2013 by MalMac

[Tankman 3,515]

Had the gas "shortage" numerous times.

 

This may sound rediculous but, I would keep a spray can of carb cleaner in the Horse's tool box.

Pop the hood, spray a little into the back of the air cleaner horn. Close the hood 'n go.

 

Tried new fuel lines, helped. Used Seafoam, better still. Use Sta-Bil® fuel stabilizer in my Jerry cans, works.

 

I always tank up after each Stallion run. Check the oil before each Horsey ride. 

[tunahead72 2,332]

I'm in Warrington. Been to Phoenixville many times. Have a friend there and been to Blobfest more times than I can remember. I even have a row (4 seats) of the original Balcony seats from the Colonial! and a 35mm copy of 4D man in it's original can marked up for the Colonial that was buried in one of the rooms upstairs. It's pretty much salad dressing (vinegar) now but it's still cool.

 

That's excellent!

 

The Colonial is a great place to hear live music too, it's about the only place I go to any more ... Jorma Kaukonen, Johnny Winter, Dickey Betts, Steve Earle ....