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privateer

C-165 no spark couple of issues, please help me out...

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privateer

Been working on a new to me C-165. The po said it ran when it was parked years ago. Somewhere in its life it was replaced with a K321.

I first took off the head cover. Cylinder wall looked great and not a lot of carbon on the topend. Rebuilt the #28 carb and set to factory 31/2 high and 21/4 low. It was in good shape surprisingly, added 11/2 qts fresh 30w oil. Installed a new fuel hose and filter from tank to the pump side.

Next was the wiring, got myself a schematic, the wires all look like they are installed properly. I changed one wire a mouse knawed on. I took off most of the connectors and bolts and sanded them to get good conductivity. Hooked up a fresh battery and turned the key...

the started engages the flywheel but nothing. Pull the plug and ground the threads and turn it over still no spark. I get another plug from another machine that I know works, still nothing. I'm getting good compression out the plug hole. I checked the ignition coil with my meter and i get a 4 ohm reading. That checks out fine. The pto is not engaged.

Couple of questions.

First, all that cranking still did not get the fuel to the carb. Do I need to prime the carb or will the pump do the work. I even removed the line from the pump to the carb to get any air out. Still no fuel. I'll take the fuel pump off to see what the problem is there. First issue

Back to no spark...when I turn the key one click should the amp meter read 12-14 v? it reads 0. When i turn it to start the motor the meter goes a bit below 0 with the starter draw. Also, would the lights go on in this position? I have nothing

How would I test the stator to see if that is working and the regulator? I did not pull the flywheel initially. What reading should I be getting when the motor is turning over?

Does this machine have a seat switch or any other switches I'm missing? I have all of the tin off prepping for paint and I did not notice a seat safety switch. The only safety switch i find is on the brake pedal on the left side. Again I do have the pto shifter disengaged.

Could i have a bad ignition switch?

I appreciate all your help in pointing me in the right direction before I start replacing parts. I tried to describe as best I could my situation.

Thanks, Rich

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Sparky

If its turning by the ignition key over then your safety switches are not your problem. I would go right to the points. Clean them of any crud, maybe a little filing of the actual points, and regap. Make sure the gasket on the points cover is good or you risk getting moisture on the points causing "no fire".

Mike............

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Save Old Iron

no spark. I get another plug from another machine that I know works, still nothing. I'm getting good compression out the plug hole. I checked the ignition coil with my meter and i get a 4 ohm reading. That checks out fine.

Next step is to check for proper orientation of the ignition coil wiring and the presence of 12 volts to the coil while cranking.

Check the (+) terminal of the coil goes to the ingnition switch.

The coil (-) terminal has the condensor and points hooked to it.

Crank the engine and monitor the (+) coil terminal - should have 12 volts there all the time while cranking and running.

If that checks out ok, monitor the (-) on the coil - while cranking, you should see the voltage fluctuating between 12 and 0 as the points open and close.

ketteringtestlightcheck.gif

Let's get that far before answering other questions.

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privateer

thx for the response, I had some time to look this over more closely last night. This is what I found. The pedal interlock switch has been cut and bypassed which now makes sense that the motor turns over. I didn't see the pto interlock switch either. ran 12v directly to the lights they work great. ran 12v to the other side of the light switch dash connector no lights when i flick the switch on/off. Bad switch.

Next, concentrated on the ignition switch. battery was reading 12.89 at the source. 12.88 at the solenoid, red wire from solenoid has 12.88 through the ammeter and 12.87 on the B of the ignition switch. Turned the switch one click to run and the rectifier, accessory and ignition all show 12.8v. Turn key to start and the start connector now gets the 12.8v reading and the starter turns the flywheel. The red start wire is run directly to the middle connector of the solenoid bypassing the pedal and interlock switches.

I will test the coil tonight like you mention above. The ignition wire (black) from the ignition switch is run directly to the + side of the coil since it bypassed the pto switch.

I did take the points cover off and sandpaper the contacts last week. I did not regap. As I remember in the past to use a matchbook cover to gap the point. Does that still hold true? The points wire attaches to the negative side of the coil along with the condersor. I need to check there for sure.

I also have two seperate black wires behind the dash that come from the warning light, a push/pull switch that I know idea what it does and the light switch. these wires are all connected in series but I do not know where these wires connect? This is obviously part of my problem? I'll take some pictures later and report back with my results. These wires are short enough to be specifically attached to the battery. not sure neg or positive. i don't want to fry anything.

I then tackled the fuel issue. Took off the mechnical fuel pump to test. I stuck the inlet hose in a bottle of water, pumped the lever a few times and i had a good flow out the outlet tube. fuel pump works fine. Cleaned it up good and reinstalled but i left the hose off the carb to see if i could get the fuel flowing. After several opportunities turning the engine over I still had no fuel flow. Is the engine not turning enough rpm's to move this pump arm? I'm confused here with this.

Thanks again guys. Much appreciated

Rich

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privateer

Sparky, used some emory cloth and rehit the points and bingo sparks are flying. Got her first few spits out the pipe...then can't get the starter to turn. The solonoid has 13.7 in off and when key is turned to start the red wire energizes to 13.7 but with no power to black starter wire. I jumped the starter and she turns over.

Now what did I do?

SOI, i ran the test and it came out like you said it should. The neg side voltage fluctuated in relation to the points opening and closing. Then I knew she worked.

I got to say I enjoy learning how these relatively simple machines operate. Now all I REALLY need is one of those D series NOS tractors that RickV stumbled upon.

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can whlvr

on the fuel issue check the tank to make sure its not plugged,i would take off the line right before the pump and see if fuel will flow out of the line,get it flowing through the line good before you hook up the pump,ive found that they dont like air,its like they get an air lock,then do as you have been doing,leave the line off of the carb till it pumps out from the pump,you know it works so thats a good thing,also make sure you have the arm on the pump on the proper side of the cam

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Save Old Iron

Sparky, used some emory cloth and rehit the points and bingo sparks are flying. Got her first few spits out the pipe...then can't get the starter to turn. The solonoid has 13.7 in off and when key is turned to start the red wire energizes to 13.7 but with no power to black starter wire. I jumped the starter and she turns over.

Now what did I do?

engine off

ignition switch off

jumper starter relay as seen below

engine should crank as long as jumper is in place

nostartjumprelaytrigger1.gif

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Sparky

Glad to hear you have spark! Funny thing....my C-165 didnt start this weekend. It would just barely turn over as if the battery was weak or dead but I knew it was good. I cleaned up a few connections but still nuthing. My neighbor suggested a seperate ground wire be run from the negative on the battery to the steel loop (lifting point) on top of the motor. I cleaned off the paint and installed it and she fired right off numerous times. I think grounding might be your issue ( like mine ) because of the rubber cradle mount.

Mike...............

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privateer

SOI, no go on the crank when I jump. DEAD bad relay....

Sparky, couldn"t hurt adding another grounding point. A lot of electrical issues point to grounding.

Anyone have a pic of the kohler mechanical fuel pump? Particulary the pump arm.

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Save Old Iron

SOI, no go on the crank when I jump. DEAD bad relay....

Rich, are you saying you identified the relay as being bad and it's all history by now?

I was going to suggest taking a heavier jumper cable a jump the two large starter terminals on the relay. If it cranks then , either the relay is bad or you have a bad ground connection to the relay.

Did the relay at least "click" when you tried the jumper to the trigger terminal on the relay? If not, then you still may have a grounding issue with the relay mount to the the chassis.

Thanks for the update.

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privateer

SOI, I'm concentrating on the relay. I'll take it off later and clean up the chassis ground and jump it first to the safety switch like you mentioned above and then a heavier gauge wire directly to the starter terminal. I'll add another direct battery ground to the lift point like sparky said. This machine sat out for many years and needs to shake off the rust.

I ran the test like you said with the key in off position and jumped the safety switch terminal. I did not hear a click at all or no starter movement. The relay seemed to be working properly until I got my first engine cough after I emory clothed the points better to get spark. Now when I turn the key to start their is no juice to the starter wire terminal but the juice is there to the safety switch wire or in my case a direct wire to the key terminal.

Thanks for the guidance and help men. Appreciate it very much.

Rich

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Save Old Iron

Rich,

this is usually the first step I take in troubleshooting a NO CRANK issue but I thought I would throw it out here in case you have not performed this yet.

Essentially you are applying a jumper wire across the two starter relay studs (bypassing the relay completely). In my diagram, I have an ammeter inserted into the jumper. If you choose to construct a jumper like this one, it comes in useful for tracing any issues with the starter circuit. Excessively high or low amp reads can tell you in greater detail where the problem lies. The ammeter jumper is not needed and can be substituted with just a 12 - 10 AWG jumper.

When using this procedure, the starter motor will crank regardless of what position the ignition switch is in.The engine will crank regardless if the safety interlock(s) are engaged or not. Please confirm the tractor is not in gear and the brakes are applied for your personal safety.

2bfa7a57.gif

If the starter fails to activate using this procedure, check the battery condition, battery and cable terminals for corrosion and proper grounding of the chassis and starter motor / engine block. The ground circuit (in dotted black lines) has to be intact for the starter to crank.

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privateer

I followed the test above and the starter won't go. I moved the neg to another part of the chassis and bingo the engine wants to start. Guess the 8" neg wire is no good. You guys are good :) Strong spark at the points area too. Fuel pump issue resolved with good pump flow. Little confused, it turned over previously hooked up the same way.

Now, it still wont start on the key. I damaged the starter relay, didn't I? Can I use any three prong units out there for sale or do you recommend a certain unit to install?

Thanks, I feel like I'm finally making some progress on this machine!

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Save Old Iron

Rich,

check the style of starter relay you are using - if it has two tabs for the trigger, one of the trigger tabs should be grounded. The other tab will recieve the +12 from the ignition switch when the switch is rotated to the start position. If your relay has 2 trigger tabs, the metal mounting bracket on the relay WILL NOT provide a ground for the relay to function.

Create a small ground strap with a push on female terminal and a ring terminal. Push on to one of the trigger tabs and the ring terminal to either a good chassis ground or grounded engine tins.

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privateer

My starter relay is a 4 prong relay with no wire attached to the ground tab. It looks like it never had a wire attached so I overlooked it as being a useless stud. I was wrong.

I made a short ground wire from chassis to the negative tab. Went to turn the key, still nothing. I got my 12+ voltage to the positive tab when I turn the key. I can't seem to energize the starter wire. My guess the contact plunger is not working to energize the starter contacts within the relay.

I will go forward and purchase a new starter relay solonoid. I guess any 3 or 4 tab starter relay will work. Correct? I now know the correct wiring of both units.

I jumped the starter and got the engine running. Yippee! She ran fine at idle with the ammeter needle moving to 13. I let it run for 15 minutes or so to get up to temperature. Went to give it some throttle, it bogs and sputters and I noticed the metal head gasket needs to be replaced as combustion is finding it's way out. I tried to adjust the high idle screw, no luck. Could the head gasket cause this bog and sputter problem?

I thought I did a good job cleaning out the high idle holes with a wire from a steel brush. Any suggestions for the engine bog problem? I'll pull the high idle screw and reclean. What else should I look for?

This machine is giving me a wheen horse tutorial. Everywhere I turn I have an issue to deal with but I'm making progress. I just hope the auto trans and hydraulics works when I get to that part of the tractor.

Thanks for helping

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can whlvr

the head gasket may cause her to fun a bit crappy but that doesnt sound like your problem,you will have to take the carb apart again,and soak it in a soakind type of carb cleaner,unless you have or know someone with an ultrasonic cleaner,they work really good,but it sounds like dirt in the carb,all these little problems is how we learn about our tractors,once you get the bugs worked out i think you will be happy

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privateer

Picked up a few parts at the Toro dealer in town. New three way starter relay, head and fuel pump gaskets and a new plug. Put it all back together.

It fired right up, trans works in both directions and the hydraulic arm works. Pretty much my issue from the beginning was bad grounding.

A new coat of paint and it will be ready for some lawn duty.

Thanks again for all the help!

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