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About sfjohnson722

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Wheel Horse Information

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    Bronco 14

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    Stormstown, PA

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  1. Update: the machinist wants another crack at it before he passes it off! I’ll wrangle up the pieces for a spare diff and get it to him early next week. We’ll start with tempering (maybe shoot to go from 25 as is to 100 in-lbs with tempering as pferedi measured for a first target).
  2. Chiming in on this thread as well (We should probably pick one to put all our data on)! @Skipper has PMed me some good information on tempering. I just emailed the machinist that made those springs to see if he has the enthusiasm to continue (he does have the ability to temper). If we are looking at 8 pinion mods as well as 10 pinion rehabs, I'd think we may need another spring rate (less pinions, less friction to lock). Skipper, and others who are using their Horse for plowing and hauling rather than mowing, may also want a stiffer diff anyway - this would require some work. Perhaps a first round of engineering with testing like @pfrederi did, and then testing in various transaxles?
  3. sfjohnson722

    10 Pinion Spring issues

    To those I've shipped springs to, it seems like the metal isn't springy enough for our purposes. As I tried to elude to in post 10, we may not have the metallurgy correct for this application. @Skipper has an interesting point, but the consensus I got from the 3 machine shops I went to was that it would be cost prohibitive to get it right.
  4. sfjohnson722

    10 Pinion Spring issues

    In that video the parking break is on and hydrogear is installed, so no I don't think so. But if the brake was off and low / no resistance from the hydrogear then yes I believe they would turn together. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
  5. sfjohnson722

    10 Pinion Spring issues

    I should put this in my rebuild thread, but until I get a chance to update it I’ll put it here for the sake of conversation. I agree with @stevasaurus, and I think @953 nut is on to something. Originally I thought the click was from the wear grooves alone, and it certainly was worse with them. But after trying the new one, there is still a click probably because of the notch and perhaps also that not all of the 10 pinions are ‘tight’ against the shell at any one time (prove this by flipping a shell half over and 1-2 pinions fall out with 3-4 held in place with the spring) - perhaps as the spring rotations when the diff is engaged it slaps the pinion against the shell. Anyway, the clips: IMG_3846.MOV IMG_3876.MOV
  6. sfjohnson722

    10 Pinion Spring issues

    Quick update on the spring and clicking - I just put my diff back together with the new (perfectly smooth) spring, and it clicks. I will post a video later to my thread on the 71 Bronco rebuild. But be forewarned a perfectly smooth spring may not stop the clicking - I think it’s *supposed* to click a little.
  7. sfjohnson722

    10 Pinion Spring issues

    Thanks for the shout out @stevasaurus! I have a few folks interested and have 5 remaining. I started with 10 of these; but I can see if we can get more made if there is a lot of interest. I tried 3 machine shops and it ended up one of the foreman decided to do it at home on the side. I don’t know how these will wear - 4150 was chosen for it’s hardness properties, workability, and cost - if someone more knowledgeable about metals can suggest something else I can inquire. I’m currently asking $20 each shipped to US addresses to cover my costs in it. PM me for payment info and address, etc.
  8. sfjohnson722

    hub removal question

    That is an ingenious contraption @Dennis Gintowt!!! The bar has now been raised significantly! I just found this post today after snapping a hub last night with a 2-ton gear puller driven with a 20v Dewalt impact. Don't try it this way:
  9. sfjohnson722

    71 Bronco 14 - differential click / ratchet

    Thank you all for your help so far. I just became a supporter, so the above posts now include the photos for reference in the future. I checked a couple other things this morning and wanted to report my findings. The thrust washers were present, and measure ~1.134" ID, slightly oval by maybe .003". The two halves of the differential shell (what I'd call a carrier perhaps) are loose on the axles and measure ~1.158" ID and seem quite round. The assembly order on the axle (mostly for my own reference) outboard to inboard is: shell / carrier, thrust washer, gear, the circlip. The spring is indeed stiff, and I needed to compress it with channelocks to get it out. When it is in place, it seems to make contact with some but not all of the pinion gears. That is to say if you flipped it over, 1-2 of the 5 gears per side would fall out. Attempting to recombine the differential shells with all 10 pinion gears and the spring in place was challenging, and when I close this up for good will require some encouragement. And I just had an ah-ha moment typing this. I incorrectly had incorrectly assumed a "10 pinion differential" had 10-teeth on the pinion gears, and why I was surprised they were 11-tooth. But now I get that it really means there are 10 pinions gears in total (vs the 8 pinion differential) - not referring to the number of teeth. Doh! Outboard side of the differential shell / carrier (left on left and right on right): Inboard side of the differential shell / carrier (again, left on left and right on right): More to come... Again thanks for all the help so far. And also to @stevasaurus and @Sarge (and all the other military folks on here), thank you for your service!
  10. sfjohnson722

    71 Bronco 14 - differential click / ratchet

    I pulled and cracked the transaxle this evening. It was tough to get open, but with a spreader / clamp between the seat bolts and a rubber mallet, it spread open. I mentioned before one of the hubs (the right one) was very sloppy and chewed out at the woodruff key so that is scrap. Turns out the left side was frozen on - penetrating fluid, love taps, and then it snapped in two quite spectacularly using a gear puller. So now two scrap hubs. Once the dust settled and I found myself unscathed I proceeded on. It was a bit tricky to get the bolts out of the differential with the one side (left, input side) still in the case, but I managed it (once I had it apart, I realized I could have removed the inner circlip and slid the axle out in the opposite direction). Enough expose, on the results. I am hitting size limits, so I will link to Google for space considerations. * edit - now that I'm a supporter , I will try putting them inline for future reference * This thing has an 11-tooth pinion with 5 bolts holding the two halves together (partstree lists an 11-tooth pinion as the currently available replacement for the '72 1-0422 model anyway). Nothing seemed to have grenaded within the differential itself. The 11-tooth pinion gears had some mild wear, but I think they look ok. The spring had some grooves, and with the 11-tooth pinion fits VERY tight into the outer two halves of the differential. Having this apart in my hand now, I am rather surprised that I could spin the differential so easily with the hub in the video I posed above - I do not think I would spin it with the spring in just holding the shafts, like what is show in Stevasaurus's video. I loosely reassembled the differential without the spring, and could easily turn the (now open) diff by hand without the ratcheting / clicking. So my current hypothesis is that the ratcheting / clicking of my video above is the small pinion gears rolling across the groves of the spring. Is the wear on the spring sufficient to warrant replacement? Moving on to other things I noticed... All of the front / middle shaft needle bearings seemed ok, as did the large ball bearing on the output shaft. Both sides output shaft has scoring / pitting where they ride on outboard needle bearings just inside the axle seals. At the inside end of the shafts, there was some play but I think this is expected to allow the spring / pinion contraption to float. The inside of the case showed no marks of damage. As I mentioned before, only mild shavings on the filter screen. The numbers I could find stamped onto the parts are as follows: - 8046 on the right / brake / filter side of the case - 8047 on the left / input side of the case. - 80*0 (guessing 8050) on the right / brake / filter side of differential - 8051 on the left / input side of the differential * note all these numbers look to be Raider 12, GT-14, etc according to partstree * Gear counts from input to out are: - 90-2017 hydrogear output: ??? didn't count before I shipped it out - first shaft is 33-tooth which meshes with the hydrogear output; other end is a 22-tooth - the middle shaft meshes with the 1st shaft with a 44-tooth gear; other end (which meshes with the bull gear) is 11-tooth - the bull gear is 43-tooth - the 10 small pinion gears are all 11-tooth - and finally the gear which slides onto to the output shaft retained by the circlip is 25-tooth outside and 17-tooth inside (and the output shaft is 17 tooth) Other random notes: - differential nuts are on the right / brake / filter side (opposite input) - no roll pins between the two halves of the outer two halves of the differential - the seat bolts are blind, but i could see the differential and count bolts through the ATF filler pipe Stuff to replace: - spring (maybe?) - gasket between hydrogear and transaxle - gasket between two halves of transaxle - two hubs - two output shafts (both sides) - output shaft needle bearings (maybe? because of the shaft wear not necessarily how they feel) - output shaft seals - couple of wheel screws (or I could potentially just clean up the threads) Any thoughts? Am I missing anything? Any other 'while you're in there parts, perhaps other / all the bearing? ID tag on hydrogear: Filings on outboard side of filter screen: Filings on inboard side of filter screen: Enlisting the help of a hound's nose as a final diagnosis before getting to it: Right brake filter side before pulling: Left / input side before pulling: Don't work harder, use more tools (this was a good idea): First shot with the case open: Second look with the case open from a different angle: Going after the stuck hub - don't work harder, use more tools (this was a bad idea): 2-ton OTC hub puller + Dewalt 20v 1/2" high-torque impact = snapped hub between two bolt holes: First look into the differential, left / input side: First look into the differential, right / brake / filter side: First look at the front and middle gear shafts: Second look at the front and middle gear shafts: Grooves on spring, #1: Grooves on spring, #2: Grooves on spring, #3: First look at pinions: Differential plate with the pinons out (right / brake / filter side): Shaft wear, right / brake / filter side: Shaft wear, left / input side: Video of differential WITHOUT spring: IMG_2847.MOV Video of shaft / differential play: IMG_2830.MOV Video of differential (left / input side): IMG_2813.MOV Video of differential (right / brake / filter side): IMG_2814.MOV
  11. sfjohnson722

    71 Bronco 14 - differential click / ratchet

    Well crud... I didn't need another project this weekend, but looking at how hard it was to spin the two shafts in this video, compared to *relative* ease on mine, I agree it's worth digging into it. I see now that perhaps my assumption that minimal shavings on the screen meant minimal internal damage is flawed. It looks like something could have broken inside the differential with minimal metal escaping. Thanks so much for the video @stevasaurus; I will keep you posted once I get a moment to dig in.
  12. sfjohnson722

    71 Bronco 14 - differential click / ratchet

    The 1st picture is circa 2007 - I'm the masked man in the back doing the dirty work while dad gets the fun job of hauling the brush away. The next two are the start of the restoration shots! It has sat for the last 8 years, and I had to limp it out of the garage and into my trailer. After redoing the battery and starter cables, letting it sit for 48 hours with oil in the cylinder and turning the engine over with a breaker bar, the 'ol Kohler fired up on the 2nd crank with a shot of ether (first crank I forgot to choke and throttle - I was too excited - doh!). The wagon is original, and it has a replacement mowing deck. The original snowblower was sent to scrap unfortunately, but I sourced a 48" long-frame plow this summer which will be better here in PA since it's mostly slush anyway. I am slowly repainting pieces as they come off (I'd removed most of the sheet metal for diagnosis runs around the yard in the 2nd pic). Once things are mostly sorted with the hydro/trans, I'm planning on fresh Firestone bar & tri-rib rubber. I have so many fond memories mowing with this as a kid, and I am probably almost as (maybe more?) excited to get it back to being a workhorse as an adult and hopefully run it another 46 years! (I have a feeling it will outlast me)
  13. sfjohnson722

    71 Bronco 14 - differential click / ratchet

    My wife insisted I get the video tonight and not keep you all waiting! Thank you for the ideas already. I don't entirely know the history, or at least one that makes complete sense. I don't think that it was too badly abused, except that dad mentioned he pulled some sumac stumps out with it in the 80's (and I would have expected him to ease into the pull and not snapped the chain tight being a heavy equipment operator and semi-driver). He then went on to mow 1.5 acres and blow snow in Buffalo for another 25 years after that with it until 2009. I've never noticed any locking up of the wheels while turning or anything funny like that (the hydrogear does seem to be slow at first in reverse then speed up - hence why I pulled it and it will be delivered to Jim's Tractors tomorrow for an overhaul). Once thing I found odd is that the hydrogear is marked as a Sunstrand 90-2071, not the 90-2046 I had expected as per tractordata. Also there were some remnants of a paper (?) gasket, as well as what I am guessing is black RTV between the hydrogear and transaxle. I asked dad, but he claims the hydrogear was never pulled, and any major work done by a Wheel Horse / Toro dealer that seemed knowledgeable. So while I think it has been used / worked hard, I wouldn't say it was abused too badly. Dad bought this new in '72. When rolling both wheels together forward, or both wheels together backwards, there is just typical gear lash noise - no clicks or any noticeable hang ups. It's only when turning one side or the other that it makes this clicking/ratcheting. Note in this video there is no fluid in the trans axle having just drained it, so I won't work it too much. Here's the video: IMG_2757.MOV I couldn't tell if the axle seals were leaking since the whole transaxle was covered in ATF from a leaking hose. Looking at the filter screen, there are a few metal shavings but nothing large indicating something obviously grenaded (but again with the RTV gasket and mismatch hydrogear #, I'm wondering if it was pulled and filter screen cleaned at that time). Maybe this is typical; again just was not what I was expecting compared to an automobile diff. @racinbob- I did see on parts tree that the 10 pinon has been replaced with an 11, at least for the 1972 1 0422.
  14. Greetings all, first post to this forum. I am in the process of getting my father's 1971 Bronco 14 (1 0421 6) up and running. After pulling the hydrogear for reworking, I noticed some lash between the rear wheels when on jackstands. I found one of the hubs to be badly worn, but also noticed there seems to be a clicking or ratcheting when turning one side at a time (whether the parking brake is on or off). The opposite wheel does turn in the opposite direction - it just does so with a click / ratchet feel. I was expecting something smoother like with an automobile differential. Is this normal? Should I plan to split the case, and if so what should I be looking for? Thanks in advance for any information!