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T-Mo

10hp Kohler to replace a 14hp

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Saw this today: 10 hp Kohler

I don't know what model if came off of, other than a Wheel Horse. And I really not keen on getting an engine that I might not be able to hear run. But, I emailed the guy and maybe a temporarily replacement engine for my C141. :D

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Terry...question?...does the engine in your 141 sit on a rubber mounted plate?

If so it's going to take a little more work to make the swap.

And if the 10HP is not a Wheel Horse spec engine you may have to drill new holes to mount it....I know the add says it is..just wanted to add that.

On the bright side your fuel pump from the 14HP will swap over.

Give the guy a call & see if he'll give you the numbers?

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The guy email me and it has a starter/generator with it. So I'm don't think it will work anyways.

BTW, the guy is our newest member here, Eastcoastyankee50. :D

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I dont think I would want to go with a 10hp where a 14hp was in a hydro tractor. The tranny pump is supposed to rob like 2-3 hp which leaves only 7-8hp for attachments. I know that the older 7-8hp tractors can do great things but they also weigh less than a C-141. I think you would be workin the 10hp real hard if you went with say the tiller attachment, snow-blower, or a 48" deck. The smaller decks would probably be allright. I think the 12hp Kohler in my C-125 Auto labors kinda hard sometimes especially when using the snow-blower. Thats why I moved the blower to the 418-A.

Just my opinion......Mike.......

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Terry,

I'm gonna confirm some of Mike's well-placed suspicions. I put a hydro tranny on my 310 a couple years ago- just to see if it would work. The tranny robbed quite a bit of power, and as a result I couldn't use my 42 inch mower deck. I had to drop back to the 37SD just to use the hydro. Needless to say, come fall, the 8 speed went back in.

It seems to me the Sundstrand on my Charger and Bronco pulls quite a bit more power than did the Eaton I used on my 310. Point being, your tranny would probably rob even more from a 10 horse than mine did.

My two cents... :D

Kevin

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I'm gonna stick my nose in here -- but only because of some good experience (and experimentation) with my Kohlers. :D

First of all, you need to make sure the governor spring is a good one. If you have a 20 or 30 year old tractor (engine) with the original governor spring, you're only fooling yourself. These springs lose their "proper" tension over time and will not allow the governor to react correctly to keep the engine running fast enough under full-load conditions. There's even a possibility that the internal governor gear/weights are worn enough to not permit a fully-functional governor. Replacement of this assembly requires "major" disassembly of the engine, including removal of the camshaft. Always replace the governor gear assembly when rebuilding or overhauling these engines. (especially if the current gear is plastic)

Once you have a good spring on the governor linkage, follow the procedure in the Kohler manual to properly position the governor arm on the shaft. This will eliminate the lost-motion (or "slack") between the "plunger" on the internal governor gear and the "paddle" on the governor shaft -- resulting in a faster reacting governor.

Check all of the rods, levers, bushings, etc. on the rest of the throttle/governor control system for oblong holes, bent parts, and general wear. Sometimes rods or springs get installed in the wrong holes and can result in a "lazy" engine too.

I had an 876 that had a very strong K181 Kohler, but would "fall flat on its face" when using the snowthrower. I also had an 857 with a 36" mower that did the same thing when cutting thick or tall grass. The "small block" Kohlers are a little easier to adjust the rpm than the "big blocks", and by setting the engine up to 4000-4100 NO LOAD rpm, they would end up running about 3600 rpm when "working". As long as they're "under load", you'll never hurt them. (as long as they aren't already worn out or ready to fly apart!)

My 1986 312A was in need of a little tweaking too, and once I set it up, it would run the 42" snowthrower and/or the 42" SD deck with no problem.

The K-241 might have a shorter stroke and less reiprocating mass than the larger "big blocks", but they can still make good power. You just need to give them a little more help. :P

**NO LOAD speed in excess of 4000-4100 rpm is not recommended on stock engines, but that little increase will be a huge noticable difference if you don't abuse it. (cutting the throttle back a little before disengaging the PTO is smart too)

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Thanks guys for all the good advice here. I think I will stick to my original plan and have the 14 hp rebuilt. I'm just not too keen on buying an engine that I can not hear run and I kinda of like to stick with at least 14 hp. So I'm thinking a good and proper rebuild of the existing engine should last me another 30 years. :D

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Take the K-241, put in a K-361 cam, swirlpolish the valves, 45 degree angle on the intake seat, clean up the ports .030 under bearing insert on the rod offset .025", set the governer up to 4000 RPM, maybe slap on a #30 carb, and you won't be very far from a 14 hp engine!

How many here realize the 10 hp, K-241 is actually 10.5 horsepower? Might not sound like much, but that's 25% of the difference towards a K-301!

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And a FEW K241s actually used the K301 cast blocks. On occasion, you'll find a 10hp with "k301" cast into the block just above the PTO shaft. I have only seen one myself.

Point being? You can bore that particular block to the K301 specs. Of course, you have to change the crank and piston (can't remember on the valves), but you can sqeeze a bit more out of that engine as well.

If memory serves me, the K241 crank has the same throw as the K301, but is counter-weighted differently.

Dale's suggestion on the K361 cam is a good one. Just be advised you'll pay handsomely for one...

Brian Miller's Kohler site is loaded with good info on the K series engines. He also sells used parts. Never bought any myself, just an FYI.

**EDIT** I see Dale and Buzz also just mentioned Brian's site in another post. Sorry for bringing it up twice!

Kevin

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And a FEW K241s actually used the K301 cast blocks. On occasion, you'll find a 10hp with "k301" cast into the block just above the PTO shaft. I have only seen one myself.

Point being? You can bore that particular block to the K301 specs. Of course, you have to change the crank and piston (can't remember on the valves), but you can sqeeze a bit more out of that engine as well.

If memory serves me, the K241 crank has the same throw as the K301, but is counter-weighted differently.

Dale's suggestion on the K361 cam is a good one. Just be advised you'll pay handsomely for one...

Brian Miller's Kohler site is loaded with good info on the K series engines. He also sells used parts. Never bought any myself, just an FYI.

**EDIT** I see Dale and Buzz also just mentioned Brian's site in another post. Sorry for bringing it up twice!

Kevin

The thick wall 241's (3.251") are capable of being bored to the 301 bore size (3.375") They are actually just a 301 block that was held to a 3 1/4" bore during maching.

The thick wall 301's can also be opened up to the 321 standard bore size of 3.500", but the exhaust valve is smaller in the 301.

A 241 crank is a "loner" at a 2.875" stroke. The 301, 321, and 341 all share the same 3.250" stroke, but the 301 cranks have lightened throws (bottoms are milled flat) to compensate for the lighter piston/rod weights. If you install a 301 crankshaft in a 321 or 341 engine, it will shake your teeth out! :P (unless you have it re-balanced)

A "hot trick" now is to build a 26 cubic inch engine by using a 241 crank in a 301 block with a special piston and rod. (sort of like a 377/383 Chevy set-up)

They can spin about 9500 rpm when properly balanced! :D

Here's a link to a great chart that shows specs on the Kohler single cylinder engines up to a 16 hp K-341:

http://www.yetmans.mb.ca/kohler/page4_5/page4_5.html

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Thanks for squaring me away there Terry.

Most anything I do from memory these days- What was I talking about? :D

Kevin

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Some very good info in this thread!

Dale the mods you listed sound pretty exotic for a C141 used around the home?

How would a faster RPM effect a hydro?

I'm assumeing there is a max RPM on a hydro pump? :thumbs:

TT I'm going to print that link out...thats some very useful info.

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I thought a few of you guys would like to have that info all "on one page".

The hydro pumps are made to operate around 3200 to 3400 rpm. By setting no-load speed to 4000 rpm and placing the engine under a load, it will pull back down to around 3500 to 3700 rpm, which will only result in slightly faster ground speed and quicker action on the hydraulic lift. The internal relief (bypass) valves would not allow excess pressure within the system UNLESS they are stuck.

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Terry, Good choice on having the 14 H.P. rebuilt. At least you'll know what you have. Can't keep an old horse down.

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Ask a simple question and..... :thumbs:

Good info guys. It's probably a lot more than I need to know, but still good stuff here. If we add anything more in this thread then it might be a candidate for the FAQ section. It might go there anyways, along with the link to Brian Miller's site.

All said and done, I think I'll pass on the 10 hp and concentrate on the engine that I have, provided of course, that it didn't throw the rod through the block and left a hole there. :thumbs:

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Terrry, I own a auto repair shop and one of our vendors sells small engine rebuild kits. I can check on the prices for you, maybe it can save you some money. One of the kits they have comes with piston, rings, valves and all the gaskets. I got a carb rebuild kit for a Carter N carb and it was only $6.75 :thumbs: Let me know if I can help. I'll see if they have a web site you can look at.

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Ken,

Thanks. I will definitely need a supply for the parts I need. Thanks, again. :thumbs:

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I have also seen kits on eBay with Stens parts. On MTF someone bought it and it works fine (so far at least). I'm sure you're well aware, never buy any parts until you've taken everything apart to see exactly what you need.

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Karl,

You're right and good advice. The first thing I want to see is rather or not the block is damaged. Then see what it needs from there. I've torn into a few car engines and know enough to order parts after it returns from the machine shop.

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And you never know, some of the engines are already +10 on the bore and -10 on the crank. You won't know until it gets opened up. Additionally, if you need to get it bored, then you can buy the piston according to the machine shop instructions and they can fit the piston to the bore, they will tell you what to buy or get one for you.

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Terry, I checked on a overhaul kit made by prime line part# 7-09725 for k321 and they run $105.00 same for the .010 over kit. They also sell the parts individually.

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Thanks, Ken. I'll keep them in mind.

Also, I believe TT mentioned I can put a 16 hp Kohler on my C141 if I removed the isolator mount. I can get a 1975 C-160 Auto that supposedly has a good running engine on it. The owner says the trannie is slipping. He wants $350 for it, but I think he is pretty high on the price. It's a little rough looking from the picture he sent me.

1975_C160_resize.jpg

He also mentioned it doesn't have the rear tires anymore. So I definitely thinking that price is awfully high. But I might go look at it and if the engine sounds good I might make him an offer for a lot less.

Under edit: I just thought about the fuel pump. Does the C's with the fuel tank under the hood have a fuel pump and if not, does the engine have a place to mount one? Sorry for my stupidity, but I come by it naturally. :thumbs:

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Umm, Terry, you're not thnking of using that C-160 as a donor tractor are ya? :thumbs:

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Karl,

Right now I'm just searching more options and yes, it might be a donor tractor. It looks pretty rough and the transmission is slipping and the deck looks shot. And right now it has no rear tires! :thumbs: Of course if I see it in person and it begins to beckoned to me with, "Let me live!", I might change my mind and keep it also. :thumbs:

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