Somebody PLEASE help me get my 854 running!

[hounddoghundzsa 7]

I bought what I believe is an 854 a year and a half ago. I completely stripped it down and replaced almost every single nut, bolt and washer. I painted everything piece by piece. The gas tank leaked, so I replaced it. The tower was rusted, so I replaced that. I put a new 12 volt regulator on it. I replaced the ignition. I put a new automotive coil on it. I rewired everything.

Then, put it all back together - boy was she looking good! A few hours later and I got her running - sheer excitement!!.

Then June 18th came. I began rolling all the tractors out and getting them ready for the '08 show. Had to put a new battery in the 854, wouldn'nt start. I got a new battery and she started right up! I pulled the kids around and went up and down the road a few times - she was ready for the show!

Friday morning came go out to load the tractors. 701 pull starts just fine. Load all the camp gear and the 701. Now for the 854.....turn the key, motor cranks and cranks - nothing . I see a little fuel sputtering out of the carb and she "belches" with every compression but won't fire. So a little ether - pop, pop, pop.....poof flames So much for the new paint!

I replaced the plug and yanked the carb to clean it a half dozen times still no change. Marked up as something wrong with the carb - maybe float sticking or something didn't go to the show and she sat for about 7 months.

So a few weeks ago I win a brand new carb on EBay - $80 sweet, gonna get her purring again. Today, I go and get the filter and block (carb) gaskets. Put a new fuel filter, plug and the carb on. New fuel........Battery dead . Ok, jumper cables...crank, crank, crank, nothing. Ether....pop,pop,pop....poof more flames! WTF? Open up the points cover, crank it over again - seems to spark a little more sometimes more than others, but otherwise points still look like new.

Can't figure this one out, and there's nothing left to replace.

Thanks in advance- Hounddog

[past7971 0]

The basics for an engine to run are compression, spark, fuel & air. You say it ran before so we should be able to rule out cam timing. Does compression still feel good to rule out a possible valve sticking/leaking? You would certainly hope carb is good and even if settings were off, it should at least run momentarily on ether. That should narrow it down to ignition. Points and condensor are newer correct? What coil did you buy? I buy the early GM one they used with points (1970 Nova for example). What is points gap set at? Start at .020 and work smaller towards .015 to see if improves. Have you pulled plug and checked the spark at plug by grounding it on head? Is coil wire to plug good?

[hounddoghundzsa 7]

Yes, I think the coil I bought was a GM type. I did replace the wire last year. I don't think I replaced the condensor yet and I need to check the gap on the points. Compression seems fine. Put spark plug tester on - looked fine. What are you thinking it might be???

[past7971 0]

To cover all the bases, also check for 12 volt power at + side of coil and voltage when cranking to seeif it dies off from bad ignition switch. You do have both the points wire and condensor on - side of coil and 12 volt power on + side right? Not trying to sound like a smart-@$$ but just checking off all possibilities.

[hounddoghundzsa 7]

I shoud add - I am definantly no master mechanic. This is a hobby I've developed over the appreciation of old tractors. I can make the look nice, but don't completely understand how everything works. I've got six round hood Wheel Horses and like restoring them. My 701 wouldn't run right either and ended up taking it to get it fixed. Got charged $100 to find out ther was a hairline crack under the fly wheel messing with the "vacuum" causing the fuel to vapor lock. If I think if i'm going to continue this hobby I need to start picking up on the mechanics or I'll run myself to the poor house overnight!

[Coadster32 793]

If I think if i'm going to continue this hobby I need to start picking up on the mechanics or I'll run myself to the poor house overnight!

You said it. I'm no master either, but one tranny gear at $277!! :thumbs:

[past7971 0]

Hopefully this will be simple and we"ll get you through it. You may mess a few things up learning but at todays labor rates, I think your better off to learn for yourself even if you had to do it twice. One other quick question--You "believe" this is a 854 so---does it have a separate push button for starter or is it started by turning key (854)? If you turn key, thats what made me consider faulty ignition switch affecting voltage. Still check voltage at coil when cranking though no matter what.

[Duff 206]

I shoud add - I am definantly no master mechanic. This is a hobby I've developed over the appreciation of old tractors. I can make the look nice, but don't completely understand how everything works......if I think if i'm going to continue this hobby I need to start picking up on the mechanics or I'll run myself to the poor house overnight!

I think you'll find there are a whole lot of us guys who love these tractors and are learning the mechanics as we go along because we're not rich! For me, it's part of the fun and relaxation, even if at times it can be danged (but temporarily, thank God) frustrating. Hang in there - most of us have been there at some point! The guys here will get you through this.

Duff :whistle:

[clintonnut 126]

A couple things you could try.

Some engines while cranking won't deliver enough voltage to the coil. Also check the timing. Timing is critical with these engines. Increasing the point gap delays the ignition, decreasing the point gap advances the timing.

Good Luck!!

Hope ya get it goin'

Charlie

[oldandred 15]

the auto coil you put on does it have a resistor to cut the voltage down if not you need one to keep from burning up the points next have you cleaned the points after stiiing they will get a biuld up on them clean them up and see if it doesnt start if its getting gas and the plug is wet it should start unless the points are dirty like i said

[TJ 171]

Did you retorque the head bolts after it cooled down?

[.5racer 14]

Is this a internal points engine? If so the plate that the points are on will need to be timed WITH the proper points gap. Either by Dial Indicater or Calipers. I used a set of calipers on my last engine and worked great. What is the engine number off the plate . Will need all letters and numbers off the plate to be helpfull !

[linen beige 14]

A few things jump out at me.

1. You sat you repainted and rewired.

It is possible that you are not getting a good ground. Clean and tighten all your electrical connections. The ehavier current draw of the starting circuit can jump a gap caused by light corrosion but the lower running current won't jump it. That means you can get spark while turning over with the starter but it goes away when returned to the run circuit.

2. You say there is a spark across the points when they open.

3. You replaced everything except the condensor.

Electricity follows the path of least resistance. A properly sized and working condensor should "soak up" any electricity that tries to jump across the points when they open, reducing point burning. If the condensor is good you should see little, if any, spark across the points.

I would try replacing the condensor. Or at least making sure it is grounded. Most of these engines will run with a bad condensor, just not very well. Also clean and regap the points. As mentioned, changing the point gap affects timing. It may be just enough out of time to keep it from starting.

On another note. A hairline crack messing with vacuum causing vapor lock?

Vapor lock is caused by heat. If the fuel gets hot enough to build up vapors in the line those vapors can provide enough pressure to keep a fuel pump from moving liquid fuel.

Did he mean there was a crack in the crankcase causing it to loose enough vacuum to keep a vacuum pulse fuel pump from working?

[hounddoghundzsa 7]

:thumbs: Thanks for all of your replies! First of here are the numbers from the engine:

Model k181s

Spec 30108A

Serial 778896

Yes, I believe it is an 854. It doesnot have a pushbutton, just a turnkey ignition, but I replaced it when I redid the tractor with one from TSC. (didn't have the push button when I bought it)

After reading all your replies/suggestions I have to add that these problems started litterly overnight. I had the tractor running great, starting it a half a dozen times before putting it away the night before the WH Show. The next morning was when this all started (or didn't). So, what could've went wrong in those eight or so hours to make it not run? What is causing it to spit out flames when I use ether? Could it really "Jump time" overnight?

It appeared to be that the points were sparking when they closed, sometimes a more visable spark then others.

[Brrly1 1,146]

Lose the Ether!!! Burly

[hounddoghundzsa 7]

Vapor lock is caused by heat. If the fuel gets hot enough to build up vapors in the line those vapors can provide enough pressure to keep a fuel pump from moving liquid fuel.

Did he mean there was a crack in the crankcase causing it to loose enough vacuum to keep a vacuum pulse fuel pump from working?

As far as the Vapor locked issue - I may have gotten my mords wixed up, that was a while ago. After a few hours of run time I have to pull off the fuel line, drain a little fuel and replace the line. After that she'll run good for awhile.

[past7971 0]

That engine spec and description of tractor sure indicates you do indeed have a 854. I realize this next reply from you will involve some time but you have stated new ignition switch and new regulator and now have starting problems and dead/drained battery. I'm starting to think you may have wiring issues. First--look at back of ignition switch. Is there any lettering (bat, ign, start, acc?) where wires connect? Second---on your new voltage regulator, is there lettering where wires connect to tabs? And third--try to describe how you have wires run between any/all connections including starter/generator. Where do your ground and power cables connect?

[hounddoghundzsa 7]

Thinking something worked it's way loose? I'll be checking into it today. I tried posting pics, but I guess they were too big????

[past7971 0]

Maybe something wired incorrectly causing draw or "back-feed"or just not right. I know from personal experience that some voltage regulators are marked differently. If you connect everything exactly as shown in factory wiring drawings and using that regulator as the example, the connections aren't labeled/positioned the same as drawing showed, you will have problems.

[hounddoghundzsa 7]

Thanks - I'll keep you posted!

[hounddoghundzsa 7]

Regulator says "12 Volts Negative or Positive" Facing the three connectors on back side left to right: "L" - "BATT" - "F" also had connector on bottom with no letter/code.

"L" is not used

"BATT" goes to ammeter

"F" goes to connector on Start/Gen nearest Fuel tank

"Bottom" goes to connector on Start/Gen closest to engine

One wire leaving oppisite side of Ammeter going to + batt terminal.

Ignition switch has three connectors in a triangular patteren with one in the middle for a total of four. They are labeled;

ACC

IGN

BATT

Middle not labeled

ACC is not used

BATT goes to + battery terminal

IGN goes to + side of coil

Middle goes to Start/Gen connector closest to engine

- side of coil goes to points

I also put an inline fuse in wire going from Ignition to coil, it is still good.

[hounddoghundzsa 7]

Cleaned and gapped points to .020. Checked all connections. Still won't run. Now to find that @$^& volt meter........... :thumbs:

[past7971 0]

Hey Scott from Brady Lake, Ohio. I didn't notice your name & location in earlier posts--did you just add that as your signature recently? Anyways, you are only about 30 miles from me. Why dont you email me off-group and if you want, maybe set-up a time next weekend and I will stop up and see if we can get this figured out. You can either just click on where it says "email" below or send it to past7971@aol.com

[Brian1045 28]

Why dont you email me off-group and if you want, maybe set-up a time next weekend and I will stop up and see if we can get this figured out.

That's why I love it here. One great group of chaps helping each other out. :omg:

[hounddoghundzsa 7]

Hey Scott from Brady Lake, Ohio. I didn't notice your name & location in earlier posts--did you just add that as your signature recently?

Yes, I am new to the forum even though I signed up long ago. Still figuring out all the gadgets.