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blake616

Voltage and PTO interlock issues

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I have 2 issues with my trusty 1991 416-8. Not sure if they are related or not. Late last fall had issues with starting the tractor. For some reason when i would stop between fill ups, I would have issues where the PTO light would be on and the tractor would not start. If I would move the PTO lever back and forth a couple times, I was then able to start. Problem #1

 

Problem #2 surfaced shortly after that.. if the tractor would sit more than 2 weeks it would turn over slowly. Finally I took the battery out, had it tested and it showed low voltage with low cranking amps. Replaced the battery in Nov.

 

I would start the tractor about every 2 weeks during the winter to ensure the battery was still charged.

 

Started the tractor last week and noticed the voltage gauge was just under 12 volts (in the orange). Was given advise that the voltage regulator was bad. Purchased another one this week and installed. Same reading on the voltage gauge..just under 12 volts. Checked the battery with a meter... reads 12.40V with the engine running. Reads 12.51 volts across the battery with the engine off.

 

So.. not sure what to do next? Is my battery actually discharging when the tractor is running...or is the 12.40 volts across the battery normal since I have a new battery?

 

And does this interlock issue play into the equation?

 

Another issue is that when I start the tractor with the clutch disengaged, the PTO disengaged and sitting on the seat and the tractor in neutral when I get off the seat, the tractor dies.

 

Do I have 2 separate issues or one issue where the interlock (getting off the seat) and the voltage issue are connected?

 

Looking for some experienced, realiable help here

 

Thanks....

 

 

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These diagrams have one for each circuit making it easier to understand.

The charge current if it exists is not getting to the battery - should be about 14 volts when running if the battery has a reasonable charge.

 

Garry

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Garry,

 

Thanks for the diagrams. Much easier to understand when the functions are broken our individually.

So did a bit more diagnostic work on the tractor last night. Found that I do not have continuity from the center lug on the regulator to the positive side of the battery. First thought was the 30A fuse. The fuse was extremely hard to remove and I actually broke it into 2 pieces when it finally did come out. Thankful that both blades of the fuse came out. I have continuity from the center lug of the voltage regulator to one side of the fuse socket, but no continuity from the side of the fuse socket (closet to the battery). It appears that the battery has previously leaked or vented onto the plate and/or the fuse block. See attached picture. I cleaned the best I could with my thin knife down into this V type terminal. I also sprayed some contact cleaner down into this area. No luck.

So it appears I need to replace the fuseblock. Does anyone have any experience doing this? I briefly thought about putting a 30A inline fuse in to fix this, but the wires to the bottom of the fuseblock are pretty tight coming from the harness.

I just checked the Toro website for a replacement fuseblock and it appears it is a part of the wiring harness for the tractor.

I'm in a bit of a time crunch at this time as spring has sprung in Northeast Indiana and I need to get this tractor back in service soon.

 

416-8 fuseblock.JPG

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Just to clarify the picture attached in my previous reply. It shows a 30A fuse in the fuseblock. I cannot get the fuse to seat into the block properly. I appears that the plastic has been melted somewhat under the fuse preventing full insertion.

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48 minutes ago, blake616 said:

I appears that the plastic has been melted somewhat under the fuse preventing full insertion.

The corrosion in the fuse holder developed into a high resistance short causing heat build up and isn't allowing current flow. Best bet would be to buy a mew fuse holder from an auto parts store and run some new wire from the B+ terminal of the regulator to the "R" terminal of the ignition switch.

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When the terminals in the fuse block and /or the fuse corrode or oxidize that is resistance to electrical current = heat. That is why the holder melts.

If I recall correctly that block and terminals are available from somewhere. Hopefully someone will chime in with a source.

You could eliminate the block and replace with individual fuses. Can be glass or the same ATO type. If you go that route get fuse holders that are good for 30 amp. The wire and terminals are heavier so last longer. When you have everything working again take one last step - remove the fuses and coat the fuse ends and fill the terminal holes with dielectric silicone grease and that will prevent future corrosion. Dielectric means the product will not conduct current which prevents other problems like minor shorting to ground if you get sloppy with it.

 

Garry

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Thanks Garry,

 

This is as I thought regarding the corrosion and associated heat build-up. Probably explains why I had trouble removing the fuse and broke it in half when it finally did come out.

 

I found the fuse holder in my parts breakdown for this tractor. The part number was listed as 78-6320 and it stated that it was part of the wiring harness for the tractor? I certainly don't have the expertise or time to replace the entire harness.

 

I am hoping that I can find the fuse block sold separately. Do you know how I would connect the existing wiring to a new block?

 

A bit more searching revealed the Toro part number for the block to be 67-7160. It stated that this replaced part number 120930. As always, I'm sure part numbers change over the years.

 

Yes, if someone could point me in the right direction to find this part and maybe some basic steps on how I will replace it... I would certainly accept and advice.

 

As I previously stated, I need to get this trusty 416 -8 back in service soon.

 

Thanks......

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Update.. I found the part on Partstree.com for $13.24 and placed an order. Now I need to know what terminals I need to order?  Anyone have experience with this and can point me in the right direction? I'm assuming I will cut each wire at the bottom of the existing fuse block one-by-one and crimp a new terminal on and insert into the new fuseblock?

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The one wire at a time method is a safe way to go. If you will be splicing wires I prefer to solder all joints and use shrink wrap insulation, butt crimp connectors won't last. If the fuse block you are buying is one that accepts terminals that are inserted into it you should use Delphi Packard 56 terminals.

Post a picture of what type you are buying please.

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Thanks for the info on soldering and shrink wrapping.. makes perfect sense.

 

Attached is a picture of the fuse block I ordered from Partstree.  

 

I found Delphi packard 56 terminal on Amazon. Can you confirm from the additional picture below that they are the correct ones for this fuse block?

image.png

IMG_1709.PNG

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10 minutes ago, blake616 said:

Can you confirm from the additional picture below that they are the correct ones for this fuse block?

Sort of hard to say based on the picture. Your local NAPA or other parts store should have them. When the fuse block comes in just take it to them for a match up, you probably don't need a box of 25.

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OK thanks....yes... that was my plan. If I get the crimping done correctly I should only need 6.  Would you recommend crimping and soldering the connection from the wire to the barrel of the terminal?   Or.. is crimping sufficient?

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If you have a good crimper and make a strong physical connection that should be OK. I tend to solder things even if they don't need it.

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On 4/21/2018 at 10:51 AM, blake616 said:

I have 2 issues with my trusty 1991 416-8. Not sure if they are related or not. Late last fall had issues with starting the tractor. For some reason when i would stop between fill ups, I would have issues where the PTO light would be on and the tractor would not start. If I would move the PTO lever back and forth a couple times, I was then able to start. Problem #1

 

Problem #2 surfaced shortly after that.. if the tractor would sit more than 2 weeks it would turn over slowly. Finally I took the battery out, had it tested and it showed low voltage with low cranking amps. Replaced the battery in Nov.

 

I would start the tractor about every 2 weeks during the winter to ensure the battery was still charged.

 

Started the tractor last week and noticed the voltage gauge was just under 12 volts (in the orange). Was given advise that the voltage regulator was bad. Purchased another one this week and installed. Same reading on the voltage gauge..just under 12 volts. Checked the battery with a meter... reads 12.40V with the engine running. Reads 12.51 volts across the battery with the engine off.

 

So.. not sure what to do next? Is my battery actually discharging when the tractor is running...or is the 12.40 volts across the battery normal since I have a new battery?

 

And does this interlock issue play into the equation?

 

Another issue is that when I start the tractor with the clutch disengaged, the PTO disengaged and sitting on the seat and the tractor in neutral when I get off the seat, the tractor dies.

 

Do I have 2 separate issues or one issue where the interlock (getting off the seat) and the voltage issue are connected?

 

Looking for some experienced, realiable help here

 

Thanks....

 

 

I don't know if this helps, but I had a similar starting problem with my '97 416-8 awhile back. I bought it from the original owner a couple of years ago, had 219hr on it, had a new battery, cut grass with it a couple of times with it. Started it after it sitting for a few weeks, it started but the stater sound a little slow, I checked the battery, full charge, and charging system seamed to be working correctly. Over the next couple weeks it would spin over fine or drag a little. I tried to diagnose the problem as best I could,( I hate electrical problems) gave up and took it to my local shop. They called me a few days later, said it was ready to go. When I picked it up the old guy that worked on it said it took awhile to find the problem, he had narrowed it down to the PTO safety switch, but all the connections were fine and the switch worked fine. He said he took the front panel off to check more of the wiring, he found the spring that keeps the PTO lever tight had come loose, he hooked it back up and everything worked fine. He thinks the PTO switch was not fully connecting sometimes causing less voltage to the stater, thus the dragging. I don,t know if he is correct but it starts fine now.

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