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Sutty

C-140 8 Speed Kohler 321S

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Sutty

Mhh, just found this in one K321 manual that I looked at:

 

"Straight 30-weight oil is preferred. SAE IOW-30 oil is not recommended above 32F. Using this oil substantially increases oil consumption and combustion chamber deposits".

 

So I guess I need single grade SAE30. I'll see what I can root out tomorrow.

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andrewLL

Hi, try Screwfix 4 stroke oil for lawnmowers.  It’s straight 30W, what I have used in my Kohler 12hp K301

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Ed Kennell

Any 10W-30 oil will work fine and will be easier on the starter when you start it in the winter.    And, you should run every engine at least once a month.    Most members on here use Mobil 1 .    I personally use Quaker State 10W-30 in all my tractors, cars, and trucks and have never had any engine failures.

 

So glad you followed through with the suggestions and resolved the problem.    Thanks for reporting the results.

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Sutty

@Andrew, Thank you for suggesting the search terms lawnmower oil. This was the key. Both Screwfix, and Homebase (very near to me) have appropriate product. Searches for SAE30 were not as fruitful, because of Google's kind assistance in finding anything that also is SAE30, including all the multigrades that match that. People like Screwfix and Homebase don't make a big play of the fact that it is straight SAE30, so they get missed in the mass of hits. Lawnmower oil went straight to them. That having been said, it would seem from what Ed is saying that 10W-30 is fine, so no need to get the somewhat more specialised straight SAE30.

 

@Ed, Thank you for confirming what I'd hoped / suspected, before a K321 manual that I found threw me a curve ball. I wonder why the manual I found said that using 10W-30 above freezing will result in significantly more oil use and deposits. My thoughts are that this would have been 'at the time', when the manual was written, and since then oils have improved significantly. Anyway, the fact remains, if most are using 10W-30 now and not having issues, it must be okay and no longer cause the issues the manual claims.

 

Thanks, I'll go get some 10W-30.

Edited by Sutty

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Rob R

I do NOT run Synthetic oil on any of my older tractors especially if they are worn, as the superior qualities of this oil will find every sin in the engine, I only use Synthetic on a engine that ALWAYS used Synthetic. I use Shell Rotellar T  (Tractor Supply) on all my old machines and have had excellent results for over 10 years. 

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Sutty

Thanks Rob, but I bought some Castrol 10W-30 synthetic oil, and have used that. Not that it's the end of the world, I could always change it again, but I'll see how I go with it for now.

 

This tractor was my father's, so I don't know the full history of how he cared for it. I have some idea, but couldn't say what oil was used, or how often it was changed, etc. More recently it has been in my possession, and I have been trying to make use of it for several tasks, such as bulldozing my grass cuttings, and towing my little, or even big trailer, around the garden, but I have always been plagued by this running issue. Not that it was too problematic, it was simply resolved by not filling the tank too much, which worked perfectly, but it was irritating.

 

Today, I have changed the oil, so here is the report of my activities and results. If anyone spots anything I did wildly wrong it would be appreciated if it could be pointed out, so I won't do it again. First I looked in the manual to find the drain, and some basic instructions. It said to run it for a short while to warm the oil, and then to raise it up at the front, which I did by running it up onto two bricks, one per side. The manual I looked at was for the K321, and it simply showed it at the bottom rear of the engine. As I peered into that area I was disappointed to see how difficult it would be to get to that spot to undo it. As I cleared away some oily grass though, I was delighted to see a pipe leading to the left hand side of the tractor with a cap on the end. I should have known better than to doubt the designers. They had made it simplicity itself. Awesome!

 

I removed the cap and let the oil drain out for about 10 minutes. I then removed the spark plug lead and turned it over, just once or twice. Some more oil sputtered out, and I waited another 10 minutes. I then put in about half a cup full of new oil, and repeated the wait, turnover, and drain process. I then did the same once more, and saw that what was coming out was clean, and red, the same colour as it was going in, so I decided I must be good. I replaced the cap, and put in 1.5L of oil. I wasn't sure how much I would need, and had seen various capacities listed, but none that I found was less than 1.5L. I wasn't overly worried anyway, because I could easily drain any excess out, such was the nifty design of the side pipe.

 

Having done that I then used the dipstick to top it up to the full mark. I then started it for a few moments, low revs, and then topped it up a little bit more. The oil was so thin, and clear, even though it was red, it was almost impossible to see where it was on the dipstick, and it easily smeared as I used it, so I had to keep waiting, several minutes, to let it all drain out of the feed tube, so that I could get a clean line. Eventually though, I got it nicely to the mark.  In the end I used roughly 2L, according to the side of the bottle, including the small amount I used for flushing.

 

I then went and put it to work, and have a few observations. First, it's starting better than it ever has. It's like it is easier. Sometimes it would take two goes, or grabs, to get it to go around and around, now it's just starting. Second, it sounds nicer when it's running, and third, it was idling faster than normal. I had to back out the idle screw about a quarter of a turn to get it to drop down to what I thought was a reasonable level for idle, and how I thought it sounded before. I don't think it's my imagination, but it seems to me like it is running better than I have ever known it to have run, in every regard. I have a sneaking suspicion, that my father would have just used any available oil, and I know I would in the past. It's only since having come in here, and started to think more about it, that I even bothered to worry about such things.

 

The new oil looked much thinner than other oils I have used in the past, for other purposes, which would have been 40s or maybe even 50s, and it crossed my mind Rob what you said about it finding out every sin, though not with those words. In my mind I was wondering if it might not 'like' it now, after having probably been run on too thick oil for so long. Certainly what came out was much thicker than what I put in. I could tell that by the flow rate from the two half cups I used to sort of flush it, the second of which almost rushed through. Oh, and speaking of what came out, it does not smell of petrol. I don't know how I got away with that, but it doesn't smell at all. Just a normal oil smell.

 

Also, a very small oil leak, which I've never worried about, just above the points, perhaps from the governor shaft, looks worse. If it starts to drip when not running I suppose I'll have to do something about that, but if it doesn't, then it still isn't bad enough for me to worry about. I checked the level again after having run her for over half an hour, with some good revs throughout, and all was well. Oh, and I started with a brim full tank, and no flooding issues, woo hoo. 

 

Other than that leak, that looks a tad worse, I'm totally delighted with how this has turned out, and I'd like to thank you all again for your helpful tips. Oh, and Ed, your tip about running small engines regularly, when not being used, at least once a month, is what I have been doing over the winter months, this past winter, for the first time ever in its life. I did it with both the horse and my cub cadet, which has a kohler command 23 in it. Prior to that, I would have to perform some form of minor maintenance, in spring, just to get them going again. Even if it was nothing other than having to charge up the battery, which can't have been good for them to be flat anyway! I suppose I ought to treat the cub cadet to the same oil refresh too. Glad I bought too much oil now, lol. I guess I'd better fish out the actual manual for that one, since it's only about 12 years old, and I still have the actual printed paper user guide. Hopefully it uses the same oil. 

 

Do any of you think that I'm imagining that it sounds 'nicer'?

 

Anyway, I could not be happier. Thanks guys!

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Rob R

From what I read you did very well you certainly are more detailed and precise then I am..... there is nothing wrong with Synthetic oil it is just sometimes too good for old machines and if the rings and valve guides are a bit worn they could pass some oil where you weren't before etc. especially if you are using the old girl real hard, also it will find any faulty gasket and will leak a bit..... you hit the head on the nail with the viscosity observation... the Synthetic is thinner and I believe has some silicon content.... This is why I suggested the Shell Rotellar T, great oil thicker used in the diesel engines and I believe some Zinc which your old Kohler valves will appreciated..... p.s. you can mix the two like 1/2 and 1/2 and get the best of both worlds. 

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Sutty

Thanks Rob. I might have been a little overzealous with the methodology, but I didn't know about the condition of the old oil, contamination possibilities, age, etc, so I thought it best to make sure it was all out, as best I could. I guess if it's changed regularly you can just go ahead and pop in the new without too much fuss.

 

I mentioned my cub cadet, in my previous post, but don't know if that's a taboo subject in here, but I'll mention it anyway. I know a little more about the history of the oil in that one. It's a kohler engine, 23hp, and I'm fairly sure it hasn't been changed, ever. The hours clock shows 460 hours, and having now looked at the manual, it says change every 100 hours, and change the filter every 200 hours. I'm thinking I'm a little overdue, oops. Anyway, having looked at the oil drain, no such nice feature, as provided on the wheel horse. The drain plug is on the bottom corner of the engine, but right inside the mower. Easy enough to undo, but not so easy to get it clear of dripping all over many parts as it comes out. I always wondered why there was a plastic pipe in the manuals bag. Probably that's what it's for, but how you are meant to get it on without having spilled a bunch already, or even how it fits I have no idea. It's just a short length of hose. I'll see what I can dig up on how best to do it.

 

Also, it will need a new filter, but cross referencing that to a readily available one over here was a nightmare. I spent hours last night searching the web, and the majority of what I got were parts in the US. I know there will be a UK equivalent, but the thread says 3/4 16, and I could imagine most of the UK possible equivalents will be metric. Even the brands over there didn't seem to match up to what is readily available here, so in the end I just gave in. I couldn't waste any more time and ordered a genuine kohler one, from the UK, and at the silly price of £14.50, but it was costing me so much more in lost time that I had no choice. Maybe they're 3/4 16 over here too, I don't know, but it doesn't matter now, it's on its way. The genuine kohler one I've ordered didn't really match up to the manual either though. The manual had a little number 2 as a superscript to the S, like this, 52 050 02-S2. In the notes, it said the 2 denotes a longer type, 88.7mm as opposed to 63.5mm, but the only one I could find from a UK supplier, had a full sized 1 at the end, like this, 52 050 02-S1, but its length was 88mm anyway, so I'm a little confused. I'm fairly happy with what's coming, the measurements check out, but I have no idea what the manual was trying to say. All the ones with -S2 at the end had a part number that ended in 02 anyway, before the dash, so as far as I can see the 02 ones are the longer ones anyway, and the -S2  part seems to be redundant? The engine model number is CV23S, for reference.

 

 

 

 

20180419_130040[1].jpg

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Rob R
10 hours ago, Sutty said:

Thanks Rob. I might have been a little overzealous with the methodology, but I didn't know about the condition of the old oil, contamination possibilities, age, etc, so I thought it best to make sure it was all out, as best I could. I guess if it's changed regularly you can just go ahead and pop in the new without too much fuss.

 

I mentioned my cub cadet, in my previous post, but don't know if that's a taboo subject in here, but I'll mention it anyway. I know a little more about the history of the oil in that one. It's a kohler engine, 23hp, and I'm fairly sure it hasn't been changed, ever. The hours clock shows 460 hours, and having now looked at the manual, it says change every 100 hours, and change the filter every 200 hours. I'm thinking I'm a little overdue, oops. Anyway, having looked at the oil drain, no such nice feature, as provided on the wheel horse. The drain plug is on the bottom corner of the engine, but right inside the mower. Easy enough to undo, but not so easy to get it clear of dripping all over many parts as it comes out. I always wondered why there was a plastic pipe in the manuals bag. Probably that's what it's for, but how you are meant to get it on without having spilled a bunch already, or even how it fits I have no idea. It's just a short length of hose. I'll see what I can dig up on how best to do it.

 

Also, it will need a new filter, but cross referencing that to a readily available one over here was a nightmare. I spent hours last night searching the web, and the majority of what I got were parts in the US. I know there will be a UK equivalent, but the thread says 3/4 16, and I could imagine most of the UK possible equivalents will be metric. Even the brands over there didn't seem to match up to what is readily available here, so in the end I just gave in. I couldn't waste any more time and ordered a genuine kohler one, from the UK, and at the silly price of £14.50, but it was costing me so much more in lost time that I had no choice. Maybe they're 3/4 16 over here too, I don't know, but it doesn't matter now, it's on its way. The genuine kohler one I've ordered didn't really match up to the manual either though. The manual had a little number 2 as a superscript to the S, like this, 52 050 02-S2. In the notes, it said the 2 denotes a longer type, 88.7mm as opposed to 63.5mm, but the only one I could find from a UK supplier, had a full sized 1 at the end, like this, 52 050 02-S1, but its length was 88mm anyway, so I'm a little confused. I'm fairly happy with what's coming, the measurements check out, but I have no idea what the manual was trying to say. All the ones with -S2 at the end had a part number that ended in 02 anyway, before the dash, so as far as I can see the 02 ones are the longer ones anyway, and the -S2  part seems to be redundant? The engine model number is CV23S, for reference.

 

 

 

 

20180419_130040[1].jpg

 

 

You doing well Sutty, yes the oil tube is there to make a channel from the drain supplied to whatever you are draining in... I personally hate them and on all my tractors I have installed whatever piping and right angles I need to make changing the oil a breeze. Regarding filters you do need to install the correct filter (one recommended by the manufacturer). In the U.S. this is easy since most of  the Non OEM manufactures follow the OEM specs..... the issue is that some tractors specify that the filter has a by-pass valve so that if the filter every gets completely clogged the valve will kick and prevent a starvation occurrence - damage to the engine. 

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Sutty

Well I didn't do so well today. The implementation of that quick release drain on my cub cadet is shockingly bad. No wonder you swap them out for pipe work Rob. If you, or anyone else, has a link to how that is done, it would be much appreciated.

 

What's wrong with it on this mower? Well first, it is right behind a wiring loom which cannot easily be moved because, from the loom, it has a very short lead to the starter. Okay, I could disconnect the lead, but that kind of defeats the quick release principle. Second, there was almost no gap to the base plate, and very little above it to the engine, so I couldn't really get hold of it to push and turn. Coupling that with the fact that the pipe was also on, made this really difficult. Eventually I managed though, and the oil started to come out. Then I made a bad mistake. Once the oil flow had almost stopped, I thought, I'll turn it over a little, to help get it all out, as I had with the horse. Wondered where the spark plug lead was to remove it. Found it, did so, turned the starter, and it started up! I stopped it right away, but obviously it did far more revolutions that the couple of turns I was planning for. I hope I haven't caused any damage? Seems to be fine, but I'm pretty mad at myself. I then looked around for why, and discovered another spark plug lead on the other side of the engine. Two spark plugs, two cylinders, and I have a twin. OMG, I didn't even know. How stupid am I. Unlike the wheel horse, on this cub cadet it's all hidden underneath plastic shrouds, but good grief, I've owned it from new, for nearly 12 years, and I didn't even know it was a twin!

 

That little drama over, I repeated the rinse, turn over, wait, repeat, that I'd done with the wheel horse. Again, second time, it came out red, though with a trace of discolouration, but I thought all was good. I then tried to remove my pipe, and it pulled the quick release valve off the side of the engine. Obviously I know now that I should have twisted it locked again before I pulled the pipe, but I didn't know it would be loose at this point. I mean, it could so easily have come loose during the procedure and had oil everywhere. At the time I actually thought I'd broken it, but after I got the pipe off, and inspected what I had left in my hand, I could see that it wasn't broken and would go back on, with a push and twist, which I did, but not before several drops of oil had come out, all down the side of the mower frame.

 

I then moved on to the oil filter, which is on its side. I put some tissues underneath, and turned it off easily enough, by hand, but quite a lot of oil came out making a bit of a mess. The instructions said to fill the new filter with oil, and put it on. How you are meant to do that, when it mounts side on, without it all pissing out when you try to fit it is beyond me. It did all piss out, but I managed to be fairly quick, so not terrible, but bad enough for something that is meant to be routine maintenance. I know I haven't done it before, but it sounds like it's something that is meant to be done reasonably regularly, and it was miles more difficult than with the horse. 

 

And, annoyingly, the filter was not to the spec the seller quoted. It is a 52 050 02, but it is roughly 1/3 of an inch shorter than the one I took off. I questioned the lengths and references in an earlier post, but I also said his dimensions checked out, so I wasn't worried. The dimensions however do not now check out. He quoted it in inches, 3.47" from memory, which when I convert it comes to roughly 88mm, the size I want, and what I have received is the one that is roughly 80mm. I've used it anyway, I wanted to get on with things, so I can't return it, but will ask him to look at his dimensions to correct his site info, in case it isn't a shipping error. My question to you guys now though is, am I okay to go with this slightly smaller filter, at least medium term, and just swap it out at the next oil change, or will it create an issue and require changing relatively quickly, causing me to have to repeat what I've just done? It's just 8mm shorter, at 80mm, so I'm thinking I'm okay.

 

Below are photographs of the 'hidden' quick release valve, and the two filters side by side. The slightly longer old black one sitting on top of the fitted new yellow one, lined up at the seal end.Hidden.jpg.beb18c0b5d8d1fa615408872c835a952.jpg

 

 

Comparison.jpg

Edited by Sutty

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Rob R

You should be fine with the Oil Filter, attaching a copy of the drain pipe I added on my C-81, have done the same with all my machines..... you just need to do a little calculating (right pipe size, pipe length, thread and elbows........  always tilt the Tractor to the drain side and drain when hot......

C-81 Oil Drain (1).JPG

C-81 Oil Drain (2).JPG

C-81 Oil Drain (3).JPG

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Sutty

Nice job with the pipe work Rob. Thanks for sharing your pictures. Makes it clear how to do it. How do I find out what the thread size and type is to the engine though? If I wait to remove the existing, and take measurements, I'll have to drain all the oil again, just to get a measurement, then put it all back to keep my mower available whilst I get the pipe work sorted. Are details like that, about any given engine type, listed anywhere?

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gwest_ca

Pipe sizes can be confusing. The different Schedules define the pressure ratings and only the ID changes for each. OD's stay the same.

 

The Schedule 40 dimensions and the most common.

1/8" pipe has a .405" (10.287mm) OD and .269" (6.833mm) ID

1/4" pipe has a .540" (13.716mm) OD and .364" (9.246mm) ID

3/8" pipe has a .675" (17.145mm) OD and .493" (12.522mm) ID

1/2" pipe has a .840" (21.336mm) OD and .625" (15.875mm) ID (Schedule 80 has a .546" (13.868mm) ID, Schedule 160 has a .466" (11.836mm) ID)

3/4" pipe has a 1.050" (26.67mm) OD and .824" (20.930) ID

1" pipe has a 1.315" (33.426mm) OD and 1.049" (26.645mm) ID

1-1/4" pipe has a 1.660" (42.164mm) OD and a 1.380" (35.052mm) ID

 

After you measure the OD of a pipe it is easy to spot increases or decreases in the sizes by the use of fittings because the size difference is substantial.

Don't confuse pipe and tubing sizes - they are different.

 

Garry

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Sutty

Thanks for that Garry. I've just spent an hour or so looking for aftermarket fittings for my engine, and soon homed in on the fact that it would be likely to be 3/8 - 18 NPT. Once I had the NPT term, I could search my service manual, which soon came across the oil drain plug in question, which is described as "3/8 NPT (INCH)". Not sure why it doesn't also say 18, but maybe that's a given. On that basis I then found a nice looking product, but I doubt I can screw it in due to lack of clearance above and below. It's threaded both sides though, so should be easy enough to extend it out, now that I have the thread size.

 

Thanks again for the table.

Edited by Sutty

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Sutty

I'll wrap this topic up now, because I shouldn't really be mixing topics like this, and this latter query is relating to a cub cadet, which isn't right in here. I'll take my questions with regard to appropriate fittings and for modification details over to the cub cadet forum, so as to not pollute this forum with an incorrect product.

 

Once again, much thanks for all the advice, and for helping me fix my wheel horse again, which, by the way, I was out on for several hours yesterday, and it performed flawlessly. When I put it away I deliberately left the petrol valve open, to see if it would smell of petrol today, and it doesn't. Kind of obvious, since that had to be related to the flooding issues, but I wanted to check, and all was well.  

Edited by Sutty
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Ed Kennell

We Luv it...when a plan comes together.        Yes, the 18 threads / inch is a given for 3/8" NPT.   Please remember NPT is a tapered thread.

Here is more info on the NPT that may be of use.

https://www.engineersedge.com/hardware/taper-pipe-threads.htm

Edited by Ed Kennell
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Sutty

Thanks for that extra information Ed.

 

The difficulty I have is with it being an American standard, the availability of fittings isn't as good over here as it is for you guys. I think I will be getting a product like the one linked below, since it seems to be a better job than anything I'm likely to be able to fabricate. Then again, it's always nice to put something together yourself, regardless of how simple, relatively speaking, so I'm not going to rush.

 

Although I said I would wrap the thread up, I will revisit it in the future to let you all know how I finally resolved it. My starting point, in terms of issues, is getting the original valve out from such an awkward spot.

 

Easy Drain

 

 

20180421_134022.jpg

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Keith of kent

Hi Sutty,

just seen this post. I run my 73 C120 on SAE 30 only. Halfords and Euro car parts don't sell it. I used Morris's SAE 30 which I got from a VW specialist locally, you need one that does air cooled engines because back in the day this was the oil that many people put in their air cooled VW's. You should be able to get Morris's on line. I also add 1/2 a tin of Wynns, I think it helps, back in the 70's I sold Wynns so I believe in it. You can get that from Halfords

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Sutty

Thanks Keith, That's useful to know. I looked online for Wynns, but not being familiar with it I'm not sure what I'm looking for, because they make several products. What is it specifically that you are recommending?

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Sutty

Nice one. I'll pick one up on my next visit.

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Sutty

Again with my apologies for writing about my cub cadet, but I said I would report back on how I got on with the pipe work. Attached is a shot of my assembly pre-fitted, and a shot of it post-fitted and in use. Couldn't resist draining the oil a little, just to see how it worked. Answer, it worked a treat. No ptfe tape on the end cap because it has a sealing ring in there.

 

Cheers

 

Sutty

 

 

20180503_124549.jpg

20180503_145423.jpg

Edited by Sutty

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Rob R

You gotter done!  Congrats low pressure so should work just fine.....

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Sutty

Thanks for confirming that Rob. I had an idea that was the case, considering that the proprietary item that I linked a little earlier was made up of a short section of rubber hose. I more or less copied that, but I included a 90 degree down turn before my end cap.

 

Seems to be working well. I mowed the lawns today, which takes roughly 2 hours, and all was well afterwards. Not a hint of a leak.

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Rob R
1 hour ago, Sutty said:

Thanks for confirming that Rob. I had an idea that was the case, considering that the proprietary item that I linked a little earlier was made up of a short section of rubber hose. I more or less copied that, but I included a 90 degree down turn before my end cap.

 

Seems to be working well. I mowed the lawns today, which takes roughly 2 hours, and all was well afterwards. Not a hint of a leak.

 

God job Sully "Winner Winner Chicken Dinner"!

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