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squonk

Try working on a car from like 78-80. Half std. half metric.:rolleyes: Thank goodness they are pretty much all gone. Starting to find metric on newer HVAC and kitchen equipment now. :(

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JERSEYHAWG /  Glenn
5 minutes ago, squonk said:

Try working on a car from like 78-80. Half std. half metric.:rolleyes: Thank goodness they are pretty much all gone. Starting to find metric on newer HVAC and kitchen equipment now. :(

I will never understand why the change. More tools needed now. Hated the switch to metric. 

 

Glenn

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ebinmaine

Metwrinch. The solution to the world's problems. 

s-l400.jpg.b88cf835a7ae30553e7aef2a5f621f4e.jpg

 

 

Gag

 

Cough

 

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elcamino/wheelhorse

@ebinmaine You believe everything you find on the internet ?

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ebinmaine
5 minutes ago, elcamino/wheelhorse said:

@ebinmaine You believe everything you find on the internet ?

OF COURSE  !!!!!

 

I actually have a set of those here and they're about as "useful" as you'd think. 

 

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Big_Red_Fred

I work on Mack Trucks at Pitt/Ohio, its all metric now, no standard tools no more, My Son Alex the Farmer is Heavy Equipment Mechanic, same deal. I wont go any farther or Jim will rip me a new pair of jeans ;-) 

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elcamino/wheelhorse

Maybe we should start a thread on worthless tools we have purchased.

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ebinmaine
36 minutes ago, elcamino/wheelhorse said:

Maybe we should start a thread on worthless tools we have purchased.

Can't. .. I don't have time to write that novel. 

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wh500special

This topic comes up every year or so and there's been much discussion over it.  Bottom line on why Toro dropped the classic tractor:  People stopped buying them.

 

Much of it is probably due to society changing.

Some of it certainly stems from the design being ancient and less competitive.

Some of it has to do with cost.

 

But Wheel Horses were always VERY EXPENSIVE machines.  They were priced about the same as JD, CC, and the rest of the upper crust.

 

In the 1990's you could buy a $5000 520H that wasn't all that different than the stuff released in the 1970's.  Or you could go to the JD store and for the same price buy something that handled better, was more compact, and looked more contemporary.  For about the same price.

 

I think the classic design is pretty timeless, but I wasn't buying new tractors in the 1990's and 2000's.  If Chevrolet had only made modest changes to their pickup trucks from the 1970's on, I doubt they would have been big sellers.

 

With regard to metric tools...

 

If you're not a fan of the SI measurement system, stay away from D250's!

 

I wish we would just make the leap and transition over to metric for everything.   Since none of us *think* in metric, we see it as a cumbersome system with too much to remember.  We have to convert to English units to have a feel for what something weighs or measures to have a feel for things, then perhaps convert back for some other purpose. 

 

It's analogous to having a loose grip on a foreign language where you have to translate something first into your native tongue to process it, then back to the foreign for a response.  Those that master fluency in another language learn to think in that language.

 

If we weren't prejudiced by our life experiences and had never seen a system of measurements, there would be very few rational people who would pick the English system for their use.  Everything in English is arbitrary:  12 inches to a foot, 3 feet to a yard, 5.5 yards to a rod, 320 rods to a mile, etc.  Or mass:  slugs and pounds-mass.  Force:  Pounds-force.  But wait a second, pounds-force and pounds-mass aren't the same unless you're at sea level?  Or volume:  Imperial gallons and US gallons.  Pints, quarts, teaspoons.

 

Or, there's metric.  Every graduation is some change only in the order of magnitude of something.  Very intuitive and easy.

 

We just taught ourselves a different system and haven't been able to give it up.

 

But alas, at some point in history the British Empire pretty much ruled everybody so we're stuck with their old measurement system.

 

Had more buyers in the 1990's and 2000's spent more kilometers behind the wheel of a Wheel Horse, maybe we'd still have them around.  Or maybe if Toro had cut a few kg's of steel from them to reduce the cost, they would have been competitive.  But unfortunately for us, it didn't happen.

 

Steve

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T-Mo

Steve,

As always, very well said (and thought out).

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EricF

I agree that cost (largely due to materials and mechanical systems) and changes in society had a lot to do with it.

 

There's a lot of steel in a Wheel horse. Heck, the hood of my 520H is thicker steel than what's in the doors and fenders of a lot of modern cars. Then there's the heavy castings in the front axle and transaxle, and the separate hydro unit bolted on instead of an all-in one unit in a minimal cast aluminum casing. That all adds cost compared to modern designs where minimizing materials for cost savings is a key part of the design process.

 

And there were big changes in home life starting in the late 80's and on through the 90's. Cost of living went up, leisure time went down. Less time to take care of lawns and gardens -- people either hired cheap lawn services or got the cheapest thing at the big box store just to knock the chore out. Lot sizes for new houses shrank. That made smaller lawn tractors and zero-turns more practical. No need for a big machine that was harder to maneuver in a small yard, especially if there was no gardening to use it for. And snow clearing in shorter driveways is easier to do with small walk-behind snowthrowers -- or the lawn service does plowing in the winter. For folks who did buy their own equipment, low maintenance was attractive even if it was "throwaway" stuff. A serious machine like a Wheel Horse needs a a little time invested in maintenance and expected small repairs.

 

The latest thing now seems to be homeowner associations that include lawn work and snow clearing in the association fee. Maybe they got tired of people skimping on "required" lawn maintenance, or home buyers want to own the whole property but still have it maintained like a condo... Beats me! :think: All I know is, I'm contemplating a move back to the midwest and the real estate sales people keep sending me listings for houses in big developments huge association fees that cover lawn care and snow clearing, plus all the other HOA stuff -- all for "convenience". For me, no thanks. But a lot of people like it, and that sort of thing is going to cut into the sales of even the box store riding mowers now.

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TDF5G
On 3/11/2018 at 2:27 PM, JERSEYHAWG / Glenn said:

I will never understand why the change. More tools needed now. Hated the switch to metric. 

 

Glenn

That's one of the dumbest things the US ever did IMO.   It wasn't necessary.  And why did we not change over completely?  Some stuff is metric and some still standard.  I don't get it.  Not just wrench sizes, but measurements for lumber, gas, groceries, etc.

 

 

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953 nut
On 3/15/2018 at 11:26 AM, TDF5G said:

That's one of the dumbest things the US ever did IMO.   It wasn't necessary.  And why did we not change over completely?  Some stuff is metric and some still standard.  I don't get it.  Not just wrench sizes, but measurements for lumber, gas, groceries, etc.

 

 

I was an operator at a nuclear power plant that was built during the Carter administration when"Everything" was going metric. Some of our instrumentation was metric (pascal)[cubic meter per minute} and some in English units (PSI) [Gallon per minute].   :wacko:   What a PITA, when taking readings we had to do conversions to the readings before recording them. 

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mrc

hi cpete1, all the previous answers are spot on. back in 2007  the last classic wheelhorse (315-8) with a deck  was $4500. at my dealer. not many sold.  most people went to the big box stores and bought a "riding mower" which they thought was a tractor. little did they know. they thought that they got a real bargain spending $1000-$1500.  i'm a horse-a-holic and i cannot convince the average guy that these little red tractors are worth their weight in gold. its a real shame. regards mike in mass.

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Digger 66
On 3/9/2018 at 6:59 AM, cpete1 said:

I just don't get it... They work so well...

 

People buy lawnmowers they throw away rather than change the oil in .

Maybe the trend started way back then and blossomed into what it is today ... absolutely pathetic .

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DennisThornton

My opinion:

 

Surely, we can all agree that Wheel Horse did NOT fail because the equipment was unworthy.  

I think that zero turns ate away their lawn mowing market.

That supermarkets ate away their garden growing market.

That what was left had some pretty stiff competition.

Perhaps Wheel Horse could have continued to some extent for a while but I also suppose that Toro's board members decided that their dollars could generate a better return elsewhere.  They were probably right.

 

I remember saving Wheel Horse brochures back in the mid 1980s thinking maybe, just maybe someday I would own one.  Maybe not a new one but I would at least have a Wheel Horse.  Now I have a dozen or more!  Ain't America great!

I also have to remind myself that I practically stole most of them and I'd be lucky to have just one if I had to buy it new!  Especially adjusted for inflation!  

 

I'm very happy that they were so good, lasted so long and impressed enough of us to have such collections of tractors, implements, parts and this forum!

 

My opinion...

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WVHillbilly520H

20 years ago this month I bought my first :wh: brand new (a 520H Anniversary) $7500 on the tag after I traded in a (late 80s early 90s aluminum transaxle) MTD CC L&G with gear drive and manual lift down to $6300 I also had a late 60s IH CC 106, I agree with @DennisThornton, the ZTR started eroding the mowing side of the market but by the time the xi series came out the CUT/SCUT was comparably priced with 3pt rear hitch FEL and 4wd for instance the 523Dxi new was $11-12k with a deck and snow plow, then the new Mahindra eMax22G I bought last year with 60" MMM and FEL $14k and that's 10 years after the last TORO/WH was produced, Toro was hard on there dealers too as my old dealer told me they wanted him to stock and sell 20+ units a year at an average price of $7k at a time when an average no frills pick-up truck was $16k in area that the average person barely made minimum wage, it's no wonder why some people just bought the box store throw away versions (my ex wife thought I was crazy buying that 520 for $6k when I could have bought the $600 Walmart mower but I still wouldn't be using it in some form today), so there's my perspective if you make something for the average homeowner that lasts more than 5 years and doesn't constantly evolve cosmetically it just won't sell or make a profit no matter how good, simple or utilitarian it is, if I had less land to keep up I doubt if I would have went in debt for the eMax the red outline I mow the blue linethe BILs driveway I help maintain my FIL mows the rest, Jeff.

IMG-1c631ea3-2784-4aae-a1a7-6a8d8f0ac7cc.png

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DennisThornton
1 hour ago, WVHillbilly520H said:

20 years ago this month I bought my first :wh: brand new (a 520H Anniversary) $7500 on the tag after I traded in a (late 80s early 90s aluminum transaxle) MTD CC L&G with gear drive and manual lift down to $6300 I also had a late 60s IH CC 106, I agree with @DennisThornton, the ZTR started eroding the mowing side of the market but by the time the xi series came out the CUT/SCUT was comparably priced with 3pt rear hitch FEL and 4wd for instance the 523Dxi new was $11-12k with a deck and snow plow, then the new Mahindra eMax22G I bought last year with 60" MMM and FEL $14k and that's 10 years after the last TORO/WH was produced, Toro was hard on there dealers too as my old dealer told me they wanted him to stock and sell 20+ units a year at an average price of $7k at a time when an average no frills pick-up truck was $16k in area that the average person barely made minimum wage, it's no wonder why some people just bought the box store throw away versions (my ex wife thought I was crazy buying that 520 for $6k when I could have bought the $600 Walmart mower but I still wouldn't be using it in some form today), so there's my perspective if you make something for the average homeowner that lasts more than 5 years and doesn't constantly evolve cosmetically it just won't sell or make a profit no matter how good, simple or utilitarian it is, if I had less land to keep up I doubt if I would have went in debt for the eMax the red outline I mow the blue linethe BILs driveway I help maintain my FIL mows the rest, Jeff.

IMG-1c631ea3-2784-4aae-a1a7-6a8d8f0ac7cc.png

Indeed!  And well put!  In 1985 a Wheel Horse was just a dream to me.  There was no way I could afford one!  I bought my used Power King instead. By the way, another of the great tractors that are still tremendous bargains today!

 

I suppose we could add that the foreign dollar and imports, Kubota and others, put a hurting on Wheel Horse as well.  Anyone who wanted garden tractor and could afford a Wheel Horse could consider a SCUT or even a CUT. 

Wheel Horse filled a market that turned into a niche market and got smaller and smaller.  Perhaps they considered entering the SCUT market, but back then would that have been a good investment with the existing competition?

Long live the Wheel Horse name!

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cpete1

I had NO idea that Wh's cost that much back then. I agree they have significant steel involved but they didn't do any major design "changes" every other year either which means you don't have to "retool". I've owned Cub Cadets, Massey Ferguson which were both shaft drive. Wheel horse's deficiency then was the lack of shaft drive (or so I thought). Now that I've owned  one (or three) I can't say as there is  much difference. I used to pull full size hay-wagons (for kicker bales) around the yard with the Ferguson.  I suspect a Wh could do the same. I remember speaking to a Ferguson Rep at Empire Farm Days cause they dropped the garden tractor line and parts were becoming unavailable. He said at the time, Ferguson was in a state of "Barely surviving" and they needed the financial support from the sale of their garden tractor line, to continue to operate. 

 

I honestly thought that the fact that Wh didn't constantly change their design that they could maintain a lower price point. All the comments above , when taken together , present a pretty good argument for their fading. Perhaps its our advantage, I'm still hoping that with new machining and fabrication technology that we can find new "Parts" resources so we can keep them going. We've got the "knowledge and support" part of the equation nailed on this forum. (You guys are still mean , grumblely, nasty, no-help , untalented  (can't compliment you too much, it will go to your head), people....:lol:

 

I thank everybody for the thoughtful and informative replies, (regardless of what I write this is an amazing forum)

Chris

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jebbear

I think you guys all have nailed it. Bottom line, we have become a throw away society. People just can't fathom spending a lot of money for a quality product when they can buy junk and just toss it when its worn out. I think today's generation just doesn't have any concept of laying on the ground, changing oil, greasing fittings, changing parts, sharpening blades, etc. They all want easy. Blade gets dull, throw the tractor away because it is probably shot at that point too. It is kind of ironic that the new generation constantly hounds and preaches about being "green" and protecting our planet, not at all considering all of the sad consequences that excess environmental controls have cost every one of us. Yet this same mindset of people think absolutely nothing about throwing mega tons after mega tons of "stuff" into landfills every day. Sad. I, like most of you guys on this forum are probably the last of the fix-it generation. There are few things that "irk" me more, than having to throw away anything, be it a tool, an appliance, a mechanical device, only because a 25 cent part to fix it is no longer available. I guess that is how and why I learned to self fabricate what I need these days to at least attempt to keep something running and out of the landfills. Just look around, how many "repair shops" for anything, be it tractors, lawn mowers, radios, TV's, appliances, etc. are still in business today?  I could go on and on about this topic, but I'm sure I would be preaching to the choir with you guys.

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WVHillbilly520H
22 minutes ago, cpete1 said:

I had NO idea that Wh's cost that much back then. I agree they have significant steel involved but they didn't do any major design "changes" every other year either which means you don't have to "retool". I've owned Cub Cadets, Massey Ferguson which were both shaft drive. Wheel horse's deficiency then was the lack of shaft drive (or so I thought). 

 

I honestly thought that the fact that Wh didn't constantly change their design that they could maintain a lower price point. All the comments above , when taken together , present a pretty good argument for their fading. Perhaps its our advantage, I'm still hoping that with new machining and fabrication technology that we can find new "Parts" resources so we can keep them going.

 

I thank everybody for the thoughtful and informative replies, (regardless of what I write this is an amazing forum)

Chris

Let me say first off the "higher" price I paid was at a "mom and pop" small town dealership that also sold lower end products (Poulan Pro/MTD) so he had more opportunities for a sale and only competition from JD and CC dealers,  2) when I was looking for my first brand new L&G I was raised on CC so I went there first then JD both dealers on a comparable shaft driven tractor at the time was $10k with mower deck and snow plow, then I went to my neighbors' dealership I asked about belt vs shaft driven his answer was simply (on a hydro drive) what moves the trans is the pump therefore unless the belt constantly slips there was real loss in pump efficiency vs a shaft, so I climbed on the 520 took it for a test spin ,the open hood classic farm tractor look and Onan sound sold me not to mention the fact he said any attachments from '73 would work/fit on this tractor so buying new ones wasn't a priority at that time as he was just getting the xi series in and they had to be bought with model specific attachments, 3) those of us lucky enough to have a mill and lathe at our disposal with the knowledge to use them can for the most part reproduce a good many of the parts if needed but mass production for profit may be the biggest issues there (even with this forum we still are a small niche market) so as much as we may hate it people like Lincoln at A-Z ,Joe's Outdoor, and Mark (RichmondRed01) who buy non running/throw away units actually help keep us going with used original parts, without "remaking the wheel", sometimes it's best that something good and simple went the way of the DoDo bird and us lunatics can enjoy something someone else looked over, JD has brand recognition from farming as well as CC from IH, AC went to Simplicity which still survives, and MTD basically owns the riding mower market now with CCC, it really is dog eat dog and if Toro wasn't making money why keep bleeding to keep a few diehard fans happy, Jeff.

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slim67

Lets not forget all the other quality brands as well that fell by the wayside. Unfortunately not just a Wheelhorse thing. We have watched them all disappear or go thru the roof on prices. Ive always liked the Gravely walk behinds and wasnt surprised albeit disappointed when they stopped making them. They made them too damn good. Thank God for the legions of guys like you all that keep the old iron relevant.:wh:

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WVHillbilly520H

I suppose I should be a bit biased of the Gravely as it was designed and built in Dunbar, WV...reckon i was spoiled riding on a cub cadet original growing up I wasnt into walking a machine even it had an engine, but nevertheless good machines well recognized in the area I live now, they do make ZTR and UTV now.

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rjg854

When speaking of old iron, you can't leave Bolens out of the picture, nothing stops this "BEAST"

 

1403730498014.jpg.366580aae4e75c0ba650341061bed8ae.jpg

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slim67
2 hours ago, WVHillbilly520H said:

I suppose I should be a bit biased of the Gravely as it was designed and built in Dunbar, WV...reckon i was spoiled riding on a cub cadet original growing up I wasnt into walking a machine even it had an engine, but nevertheless good machines well recognized in the area I live now, they do make ZTR and UTV now.

They had probably 50 attachments for the Gravely walkbehinds. Terramite even had a backhoe attachment for them. I wish I kept my 5665 with a 301 in it.

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