cod 116 #1 Posted February 25, 2018 During a recent conversion with a friend about gas, he mentioned that he was under the impression that the higher octane fuels had less ethanol than the 87. Not sure if this is true and /or if the higher octane would damage the M-18 Kohler. Any thoughts? BTW, for those of you who live in the Red Lion and Delta areas of PA, there is s new Royal Farms on 74 (towards Delta) that carries ethanol free gas at roughly $1.00 more than the unleaded regular. Cod 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pfrederi 17,143 #2 Posted February 25, 2018 High Octane can still have ethanol. Some stations have ethanol free hi-test. The higher Octane will not hurt your magnum...just your pocket book. But if you can get ethanol free hi-test that could be worth teh extra Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Digger 66 3,476 #3 Posted February 25, 2018 I'm pretty sure all fuels have corn in them now unless otherwise stated . The ratios to octane i'm not sure about but if it says "contains 10 % ethanol" , 1 out of every 10 gallons you pump is garbage . I buy the high octane ( 93 ) around here because it's the only grade available without the poison in it . Using high octane fuel in a low compression is a waste of money , unless thats the only way you can feed your engines pure gasoline https://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WHNJ701 4,164 #4 Posted February 25, 2018 whether it's right or not I run 93 in all my small engines (my garden tractors, lawn mowers etc..) mixed with stabil, I noticed a difference for the better for easier starting and running if they sit for awhile. the truck and cars get 87 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
953 nut 51,628 #5 Posted February 25, 2018 1 hour ago, cod said: During a recent conversion with a friend about gas, he mentioned that he was under the impression that the higher octane fuels had less ethanol than the 87. Not sure if this is true and /or if the higher octane would damage the M-18 Kohler. Any thoughts? BTW, for those of you who live in the Red Lion and Delta areas of PA, there is s new Royal Farms on 74 (towards Delta) that carries ethanol free gas at roughly $1.00 more than the unleaded regular. Cod We are sensitive to this subject, but the aviation hobby if frightened of ethanol. First I will share a little easy to do test for ethanol because the gas station operator has no idea if there is any in the gas or not. Also some aviation concerns. To determine if ethanol is in the gas: On a test tube or olive bottle six or seven inches long, make a permanent line about two inches from the bottom. Fill with water to this line, then fill the tube to the top with gasoline. Cover the tube, agitate it, and let it stand. The ethanol and water will mix and separate out together. If the water level appears to have increased, the fuel contains ethanol and should not be used. Ethanol percentages of less than 5% can sometimes give a reading below the line. Therefore, any deviation in the water line indicates the presence of ethanol and should serve as a basis for rejecting the fuel. DO NOT burn fuel with ethanol in your airplane. Revert to 100LL if ethanol free gasoline cannot be found. Ethanol fuels can damage the rubber and aluminum components of your aircraft fuel system. Ethanol increases the volatility of fuel. Ethanol can absorb significant amounts of water in flight. Ethanol may vent off at altitude, reducing both range and octane. Ethanol has fewer BTUs than conventional gasoline, which further reduces range. Ethanol has an affinity for water and can pull moisture from inlet air on humid days to such an extent that the engine may malfunction. Allowing gasoline with ethanol to remain in the airplane for extended periods of time has resulted in the need to replace carburetors, hoses, and gaskets. It has also been reported to clean the interior of fuel tanks, leaving the accumulated sludge in the screen. If you cannot find gasoline that you are certain is ethanol free, you must revert to using avgas. Not all gasoline service station pumps label ethanol content. The ethanol industry considers pump labeling to be discriminatory and lobbied successfully for elimination of Federal pump labeling laws in regards to ethanol content. Today's pumps are labeled as to ethanol content only if state law requires it. It has become increasingly difficult for many pilots in the US to obtain ethanol free gasoline.In some areas of the country, it is impossible to find. This is primarily due to Federal requirements and EPA regulations which require ever increasing quantities of ethanol to be blended into the nation's gasoline supply. Oil companies are required to add ethanol or they face hefty fines. Most of them today however are happy to use it because it allows them to manufacture an inferior product (sub-octane gasoline) and then to sell it for the same amount of money after blending in ethanol to make up the octane deficit. You must be vigilant when purchasing fuel to make certain that it is conventional, non ethanol gasoline. Be certain, before ordering an STC, that you are able to purchase conventional, non-ethanol gasoline of the proper Anti-Knock Index or AKI. Be aware that sub-octane gasoline (gasoline intended for the addition of ethanol) is being distributed to terminals in the US. Never use gasoline with an octane rating less than the minimum proscribed on your Auto Fuel STC.The old maxim is: “You may always go up in octane but not down.” Failing to observe this one simple rule can lead to catastrophic engine failure due to detonation. 4 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sarge 3,462 #6 Posted February 25, 2018 Wow - that whole statement should be a permanent sticky in the biggest bold text possible on every forum dealing with small engines . I've been screaming about this stuff for years since I own a lot of older equipment and have dealt with the resulting issues and failures - the aircraft industry is far ahead of everyone else because of safety restrictions, too bad we can't at least adopt some of that the to mass market and stop this stuff from being used to pad profits and hurt consumers in the process. The Lobby is so powerful now I don't how we can go back and Congress has been more than happy enough to play along, that needs to stop. The truth listed in those points needs to be driven into the minds of every consumer in this country - with a hammer if necessary. Thank you so much for posting that - I have been hunting that page for quite awhile since it's very well-written and easy to understand, especially the portion about user testing, kudos to @953 nut !!! Sarge 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DennisThornton 4,769 #7 Posted February 25, 2018 Some of our local quick stop shops have my strongly preferred ethanol free 91 octane and we sell Stihl ethanol free 93 octane mix at the hardware store (but at a price you'd never run in your tractor!). I know of no reason to run high octane in a tractor other than it's the only way to avoid ethanol UNLESS perhaps it starts better in cold weather. I've also been told too many times to not believe it that there seasonal blends in fuels, gas, diesel and heating so that would make decisions even more complicated. You buy low octane gas in the summer and some of the lighter volatiles evaporate until come January the engine won't start. Maybe fresh winter blend would start? I'm just sharing what I've heard that sounds plausible. Maybe someone who knows would share more. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DennisThornton 4,769 #8 Posted February 25, 2018 Oh! And Richard, that was a great post! If you lived in the "corn belt" I might have some concerns for your well being but I suppose you're OK where you live! That really does a good job of explaining the real world as I understand it! Don't misunderstand me, ethanol is great stuff and I use and even recommend moderate mixing and consumption but it should never ever be mixed with gasoline! 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
953 nut 51,628 #9 Posted February 25, 2018 16 minutes ago, DennisThornton said: If you lived in the "corn belt" I might have some concerns for your well being but I suppose you're OK where you live! In the mountains of Western North Carolina we know about alcohol! 4 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pfrederi 17,143 #10 Posted February 25, 2018 Even in vehicles designed for it Ethanol reduces gas mileage as there are fewer BTUs (or hp hours) per gallon. Note on this chart how much weaker the E85 stuff is and that is what some are pushing for....sad. 1 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
classiccat 548 #11 Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) the only benefit from higher octane E10 is that when the ethanol does eventually phase separate, it's no longer available for combustion...and the ethanol is factored into the octane rating. I'm fortunate enough to have 2 stations w/ E0 fuel nearby... I only purchase what I plan to use in 1-2 months. The only thing that gets added is 1oz / gal of seafoam. One little tip: When I'm at the pump, I always "treat" my truck to the 1st 2 gallons to purge the E10 (OR MORE!) corn squeezins and ensure my OPE tank is pure E0. the guy I purchased the C85 from swore he used E0 only. Here's the ethanol/H2O jelly that I extracted from the bottom of the C85's fuel tank: Edited February 25, 2018 by classiccat 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DennisThornton 4,769 #12 Posted February 25, 2018 Even though I'm enjoying it I'm getting off topic regarding the original question regarding octane. I think most of us know gasoline is not a good mix with the basis of our adult beverages, but what values does high octane have for our tractors? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
littleredrider 408 #13 Posted February 25, 2018 Back when I had my other collection of 'horses, that was all I would put in them was 93. They would sit for months without being started. I'd go out in the middle of winter, turn the key, handful of revs later, it was running. I heard of people running 87 in other motors, and even after they rebuilt the carb, it would turn to powder and either ruining the carb, or needing another rebuild. Pretty much anything that I have besides my car, truck and Tahoe, get 93. I just sold my 854 that I got last summer. I haven't touched it since then, but it had 93. After jumping it off another tractor, it started up. Now the carb needed work but that was just needle and seat were out of whack. Sitting for that long with 87, the carb would be junk. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
roadapples 6,981 #14 Posted February 25, 2018 I was told that air cooled engines run cooler with higher octane gas. Don't know this to be fact. I always use high test in my tractors. The manuels may call for regular, but regular was higher than 87 octane in the 60's & 70's ... 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sarge 3,462 #15 Posted February 25, 2018 My arguments against ethanol and cheap base grade fuels is proven - all my equipment starts easily after being stored, sometimes for more than a year with no issue. Everyone else drags their junk over here for repairs - it's to the point I tell them to replace it and see if they will actually listen to advice and stern warnings about the stuff. Evidently, some humans are just stupid , no other explanation and no matter what I do, they won't listen but will complain about repair costs. Sarge 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skipper 1,788 #16 Posted February 25, 2018 Why not use the "test with water" method, upscaled, and then drain the water/ethanol mix right out of it? Cheapest way to get pure gas perhaps? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skipper 1,788 #17 Posted February 25, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, roadapples said: I was told that air cooled engines run cooler with higher octane gas. Don't know this to be fact. I always use high test in my tractors. The manuels may call for regular, but regular was higher than 87 octane in the 60's & 70's ... They run cooler on ethanol gas, which is actually a positive side of E fuel that also should be mentioned. If the engine run cooler on higher octane, it is because your ignition is premature for the low octane, causing heat build up. Has nothing to do with the gas itself, but is a derivative of the timing being set for higher octane. Hense, your engine will also make more power on high octane, if adjusted to it, compared to low octane. Edited February 25, 2018 by Skipper 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WVHillbilly520H 10,369 #18 Posted February 25, 2018 With my vague understanding the octane rating is how well the fuel will resist detonation (or pre ignition) before spark, and lower compression engines such as our little air cooled engines and most daily driven cars trucks (9:1 and under) now as we raise compression and/or force induction (turbo/supercharged) the need for higher octane fuels with normal (older) fuel delivery systems (carbs, throttle body injection, intake port injection) but as more sophisticated computer controlled ignitions and direct port injection are coming on board higher compression can be used with lower octane fuel like my '14 Silverado 11:1CR direct port injected tuned for 87 or E85 and when I do run E85 it definitely comes alive but goes from 18mpg to 12-13mpg, running 93 octane in a vehicle "tuned" for 87 won't run any better or give any better fuel mileage, supposedly higher octane fuels have higher levels of detergents ect for helping eliminate carbon deposits thereby helping prevent detenotaion along with the octane, here in VA a local farm related fuel provider sells non ethanol fuels in 87/89/ and 93 octane but I still buy the 93 only for its supposed better additive/detergent package, I really haven't noticed any difference between 87 and 93 for power but haven't had any of the carb issues since going nonE93 , the old saying pay me now or pay me later really stands for itself here, so there's my with a dollars worth of change, Jeff. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ericj 1,576 #19 Posted February 26, 2018 way back in 1988 I bought my first new truck, only new truck to tell the truth, I was having problems with fuel mileage and some performance issues after about 3 months of ownership. So I took it back to the dealer and they wanted to replace the fuel injectors. It is throttle bodied injected. The mechanic pulled the air cleaner and looked into the throttle body and then looked back at me and asked what for grade gas i run it it then answered himself and said 93 octane right. the inside of the throttle body was perfectly clean. He went ahead and changed the injectors anyways and told me that high test gas has additives that clean fuel injectors and keep motors and fuel injectors cleaner then regular. I ran high test for years in all my vehicles. After working for and oil company doing furnace repairs, the tanker drivers told me that mid grade gas is just a 50/50 blend of high test and regular, so I started using mid grade in my vehicles with out any problems, kinda getting the best of both world so to speak. With that being said I only run high test in my tractors and lawn equipment. A lot of my tractors sit for months on end and so far I have had very little if any problems. sometimes the tractor will run a little funny till I get the old gas run out of it but it does run, and by the way I do add stay-bil to my gas when I buy it. eric j 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lynnmor 6,765 #20 Posted February 26, 2018 Pretty much the same cleaning additives in all grades of gasoline. Will higher octane gasoline clean your engine better? No, as a rule, high octane gasoline doesn’t outperform regular octane in preventing engine deposits from forming, in removing them, or in cleaning your car's engine. In fact, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency requires that all octane grades of all brands of gasoline contain engine cleaning detergent additives to protect against the build-up of harmful levels of engine deposits during the expected life of your car. https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0210-paying-premium-high-octane-gasoline 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ed Kennell 35,724 #21 Posted February 26, 2018 On 2/25/2018 at 12:01 PM, cod said: BTW, for those of you who live in the Red Lion and Delta areas of PA, there is s new Royal Farms on 74 (towards Delta) that carries ethanol free gas at roughly $1.00 more than the unleaded regular. Cod I stopped there today ( 2 miles South of Red Lion) and they are not selling gas. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lynnmor 6,765 #22 Posted February 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Ed Kennell said: I stopped there today ( 2 miles South of Red Lion) and they are not selling gas. Ed, you need to go about 15 miles towards Delta. I buy 90 octane ethanol free there for my motorcycle. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ed Kennell 35,724 #23 Posted February 27, 2018 (edited) Thanks Lynn, I may try the Sunoco in Dallastown....I see they have a sign for racing fuel. Edited February 27, 2018 by Ed Kennell Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cod 116 #24 Posted February 27, 2018 Thanks for the replies and the information. Nice to know I won't ruin the Kohler if I go with a higher octane fuel. I also apologize for any confusion I caused about the RF selling ethanol free gas. I saw the price they had on their sign but I never checked to see if they were actually selling it. If I'm by there this weekend, I'll stop in and check. Plus I should have also mentioned that the station on 74 is down by the rotatory near the Delta Family Restaurant. So hopefully I didn't send Ed on a wild goose chase down to Maryland... Cod 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ed Kennell 35,724 #25 Posted February 27, 2018 No goose chase here Cod. I didn't even notice the Royal Farms in your post. All I saw was Red Lion and Rt 74 and I assumed you were referring to the recently reopened Gohn's Sunoco station 2 miles south of Red Lion. My bad. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites