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Michael Thompson

Dumb question

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Yes as the title states I am about to foist a dumb question on thee. 

 

If a Vee belt absorbs power as compared to say a direct drive Cub Cadet then would a Wheel Horse equipped with a chain drive in place of the belt be competitive and or legal?

 

Now after y'all stop laughing at me remember in the motorcycle world a chain driven real wheel is the most efficient way to put horsepower to the pavement. 

 

Additionally a chain and sprockets can be specced to be incredibly strong. 

 

This may may have been discussed here before and I admit I didn't search it out but if so it wouldn't hurt to revisit the idea, would it?

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Were you planning on using a centrifugal clutch?   If belts are so bad I wonder why Harley went to them?

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51 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Were you planning on using a centrifugal clutch?   If belts are so bad I wonder why Harley went to them?

Also why do so many car engines have timing belts vs chains rated for 100k miles and higher revs than a standard 3600 rpm air cooled engine, or for drag racing engines the Jessel belt driven timing sets, as to the OP from my personal experiences dad has a 1200 Cub Cadet direct shaft to manual transaxle I believe is more efficient than a belt but with a hydro like on my 520H something still has to spin the pump belt, chain, or shaft really doesn't make much difference as long as the drive system in top condition, the belt is basically maintaince free with a spring tensioned idler set-up as well as less vibration vs a chain with set tension idler needing lubrication and relaying vibrations, vibrations is what the flexible "rag" joint is employed for in the direct shaft drive, so each has its inherent pros and cons so with my ramblings why not a cogged belt and pulley set best of both worlds like the Harley and Jessel systems :think:...Jeff.

Edited by WVHillbilly520H
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I think if you research this you will find that a cog or serpentine belt does not create the power loss that a V-belt does. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cvans
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1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

If belts are so bad I wonder why Harley went to them?

I think Jeff just answered that question.

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I think a chain drive would be great for pullers . But with a belt if anything has to give or break I'd rather have a belt go then a chain taking out a trans or engine before it broke.

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:text-yeahthat:

If a clutch mechanism of some type is not included, What will end up being the weakest link in chain? The engine or the Tranny....

 

 

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Every system should have a "fuse".   The weakest link should be a cheap one. 

The other thing a failed chain could eat up is the operator

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I have been pulling in stock class w/belt driven Wheel Horse with no problems using a Wheel Horse belt,a stronger spring,you will lose traction before belt slips.

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I think a clutch such as the type employed in a direct drive system would suffice. 

 

Now I realize a cog belt is a great way to turn sprockets but they won't hold power like a chain. 

 

No I just ask this question because as I'm learning more about garden tractor pulling the consensus seems to be that Vee belt tractors, like a Wheel Horse, can't compete against direct drive machines like a Cud Cadet. 

 

Actually I think you'd find that a chain driven final drive is more efficient that a hypoid or even a straight gear differential. 

 

Just all hypothetical stuff, but interesting to think about nonetheless. 

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20 minutes ago, Michael Thompson said:

No I just ask this question because as I'm learning more about garden tractor pulling the consensus seems to be that Vee belt tractors, like a Wheel Horse, can't compete against direct drive machines like a Cud Cadet. 

 

A lot depends on the rules of the pulling club. In my area "stock" is a very loose term when it comes to GT pulling. While they are limited to RPMs, most of the stock Cub Cadets do not have stock engines, clutches, or transmission parts. One advantage of pulling Cubs is that most of the home work has already been done and the high performance parts are readily available. I believe that if you are pulling factory stock CC's against factory stock :wh:'s you would find that the two could be equally competitive.

 

If you want to jump to an improved stock or modified class, I would probably not choose a :wh: simply based on transmission limitations. To my knowledge no one is producing any type of high performance parts for a :wh: tranny. Another item I factor into high performance pulling is (HP=$). I'm usually lacking the $ part of this equation.:D 

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Not a puller, but it's my understanding the belt will only slip at higher R.P.M.'s like above 4000.....:think:

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SewThe older (original cast iron) Cub Cadet transaxle is the very same one found in the IH Farmall CUB from the late 40s on just shortened axles/housings if it could handle the abuse of actual row cropping many acres with bigger tires and loads why wouldn't it work on a smaller scale sled puller, also another fun fact the CC ORIGINAL actually used a short belt from the crank pulley to the "clutch" that coupled to the drive shaft and our old 8hp Kolher belt did "slip" quite a bit pushing/pulling heavy loads in 2cd or 3rd gear take off about 40 years ago not that I was "hot rodding" it or anything way back when :whistle:

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5 hours ago, ELECTRORIC said:

you will lose traction before belt slips.

Well said!

This is the truth, no matter how strong you build everything else the limiting factor is traction and a :wh: transaxle will outlast traction!

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1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

Well said!

This is the truth, no matter how strong you build everything else the limiting factor is traction and a :wh: transaxle will outlast traction!

 

The purpose of my question was to visit the idea that the Vee belt is less efficient at transferring every ounce of power to the rear wheels. 

 

From what I gathered belt drive tractors are fine for Stock classes but when you get up into modified stuff it's pretty much a Cub Cadet world. 

 

Well that got me to thinking probably because of my experiences with motorcycles  that a shaft drive bike is third in drive line efficiency behind chains and cog belts. 

 

Maybe its the WH transaxle (I am completely a greenhorn) that is the limiting factor and not the power loss through the Vee belt. 

 

That Cub transaxle looks pretty beefy but looks can be deceiving. 

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One thing that makes shaft drive less efficient on a bike is the fact that you are changing the rotation of power. The right angle change in rotation cost power. That being said, a WH probably transfers power to the wheels more efficiently than a CC. Truth be told the only GT that I've seen run out of power at a pull would be a hydro. All others spin out.

 

A belt slip issue could possibly be remedied by going to a double drive belt drive. 

Could also simply be an issue of most people not sticking the time into a WH because a CC is easier to build given the amount of parts that are already available. For instance you can buy a brand new turn key puller from Mid West Super Cub if you wanted to.

Edited by Achto
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:text-yeahthat:         And Brian Miller's website is weighted toward CC  coupled with the monkey see, monkey do mentality that leads people to follow the pack. 

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cub cadet trans have there weakness too there ok for stock classes  but when you get into higher hp and higher rpm you have to make them stronger and there is plenty options with all the parts available for them.

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On February 9, 2018 at 10:04 AM, Michael Thompson said:

I think a clutch such as the type employed in a direct drive system would suffice. 

 

Now I realize a cog belt is a great way to turn sprockets but they won't hold power like a chain. 

 

No I just ask this question because as I'm learning more about garden tractor pulling the consensus seems to be that Vee belt tractors, like a Wheel Horse, can't compete against direct drive machines like a Cud Cadet. 

 

Actually I think you'd find that a chain driven final drive is more efficient that a hypoid or even a straight gear differential. 

 

Just all hypothetical stuff, but interesting to think about nonetheless. 

I spanked the cubs in my 2 classes and so did my father. Enough said

On February 9, 2018 at 7:47 PM, ELECTRORIC said:

cub cadet trans have there weakness too there ok for stock classes  but when you get into higher hp and higher rpm you have to make them stronger and there is plenty options with all the parts available for them.

A stock cub rear is weaker then a stock horses rear. 

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