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c175 starting

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I have C175 with Kohler twin #120171148 & #24243 on engine.Tractor model is 11-17k801    KT-175. It does not use any oil and has lots of power after starting.  Its very hard to start after sitting for day or 2.  Even when its warmed up ,restarting requires long cranking. Always start with full throttle,full choke.except when warm.,then no choke.. Any ideas of starting problem causes ?

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As Ed said try an electric fuel pump. It's probably draining the gas back to the gas tank and if the fuel pump is weak it will have to resupply to the carb. It common on older machines and a new fuel pump is very inexpensive. Others have got pumps from ebay for less then $15.00. @953 nut got 2 for @ $20.00.

He'll be here soon he's one of pros. 

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Ditto the electric pump. my C-175 had worn lobes on the cam that drove the mechanical pump so i had to go that route. one of the best mods going!

 

there is a fantastic write up on the site here. tells you what you need to do the install.

 

I used a pump off eBay, cost under $12. liked it so much I got another one and made an electric siphon setup to help drain tanks that were going to be sitting for more than a couple months... (stupid ethanol...)

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:text-yeahthat:      The mechanical pump is located above the tank and has a hard time drawing fual up to it. Mount your electric pump low and connect the wire to your accessory (lighting) fuse so it is protected.

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That's a common issue with the fuel tank under the seat and lower than the fuel pump. I had the same problem with my low hour 2005 Classic. I picked up the two for <$20 electric pumps but then decided to try a check valve first so I picked up a couple of them. Before I got one installed @stevasaurus suggested this simple test to see if it helped. Simply park the tractor with the back end raised and the tank full. So I parked it with the rear up on ramps. Normally I could go one day, maybe two but after that I would have to crank it a bit. After sitting over a week on the ramps it fired up immediately. Cool! Of course i didn't want to park it on the ramps all the time so I went the easy and fast route (call that lazy) and put a check valve in line. That proved to be about a 90% fix. Since I'd been using a different tractor with a blade to move snow it sat for about a month with the blower mounted. Starting was better but I still had to crank more than I liked. It could have been the single digit temps or the valve leaks back slowly. In any case, I'll be putting one of the electric pumps on it when things warm up. That should solve the issue for good. :)

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@953 nut What do you think of this Dick. My 2005 Classic is a bit different. The ignition switch is a four position. Off, lights, run, start. To turn the lights on I flip the switch back a notch from the run position. I've never really cared for that and always intended to put a separate switch on it but just haven't because I really never use the lights. I was thinking to add the switch then wire the pump to the ignition switch light terminal. This does become hot without the engine running so I thought I could use it to 'prime' things then start as usual and the mechanical pump would take over. My only concern is if the mechanical pump would have an issue pulling through the unpowered electric pump. :think:  I think I touched on this in a prior thread but we have some newer faces here. :)

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1 hour ago, Racinbob said:

use it to 'prime' things then start as usual and the mechanical pump would take over. My only concern is if the mechanical pump would have an issue pulling through the unpowered electric pump

I bypassed the mechanical pump and ran the line from the electric pump directly to the catb. Do you have an "A" terminal on the ignition switch? 

 

1 hour ago, Racinbob said:

The ignition switch is a four position. Off, lights, run, start. To turn the lights on I flip the switch back a notch from the run position.

I have seen that setup on a few larger tractors, must be a cost reduction having one less switch.

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Chargers and Electros also used the 4 position switch. Off / Acc and Ignition /  igniton only / start. not sure what the purpose was as they have a separate light switch.  Staring isn't an issue for them as the tank sits high.  All my C-175s (and 418) have electric pumps as they cranked for an eternity.  BUT i have a 310-8 (under seat tank) that fires almost instantly????

Edited by pfrederi
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I haven't looked at the switch but according to the wiring diagram no. There are several points where I could connect to that would do the same thing. The electrical on this thing is a complex mess and I vowed to yank it all out and wire it like the good old days if it ever gave me problems but in the 8 years I've had it there hasn't been an issue. I'm sure it will happen though. You're probably right about the cost savings. The reasoning behind my idea is to use the electric pump to eliminate the excessive cranking but when it's running it's not operating. Kinda like glow plugs on a diesel. Use them to get started and then take them out of the picture. Probably the best thing is for me to just try it and see what happens. If it works I'd love it, if not It wouldn't take much to go the traditional route.:)

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It all comes down to fuel lines and the sealing capability of the valves in the fuel pump - even the slightest amount of debris or wear on those valve seals will cause them to lose their prime. If you have one that works perfectly, keep a really good fuel filter on it and it should stay that way as long as the fuel line doesn't deteriorate internally. Once they leak , they are done and take forever to prime since they cannot develop any vacuum. Even the old style metal pumps with high mounted engine bay tanks can have a priming problem, rebuild or replace the pump and they work as they should. Using an electric pump can solve most of the issues - but beware, those cheap pumps may not last very long against a load without a return line to remove the pressure stoppage when at idle - they just overheat their coil and burn out. I prefer to use a return line but none of our tractors are set up for one - there is a way to tee it back into the tank feed and I did that on the D-180 but it takes some work.

 

Most electric low-pressure pump designs will still allow the mechanical pump to draw fuel through them - it just depends on the internal check valves but it can put an additional load on the mechanical pump, usually not an issue, really. Biggest thing with any mechanical pump that uses a diaphragm - make certain it's not dumping fuel into the oil so check the dip stick on the engine often with not only your eyes - but your nose as well. It doesn't take much fuel to thin the oil and wreck internal parts...

 

Sarge

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The elevation of the fuel pumps on the single Kohlers  is below the fuel level in a under seat tank if the tank is full.    This prevents  the fuel from draining back to the tank and the  pump from losing prime causing hard starting.     

The fuel pumps on the twin cyl. engines is higher than the tank fuel level so keeping the tank full will not help.  

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Thinking about Bobs idea of just using the electric pump as a primer.

 

A separate momentary push button primer switch on the pump would work, or it could be wired to the starter solenoid.

 

And Sarges concern with overheating at idle.    Could the electric pump simply be paralleled into the fuel line with Tees.    This should still create enough pressure to prime the mechanical pump and also create a path for the fuel to return to the tank at idle.

 

                                Thoughts?

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45 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

The elevation of the fuel pumps on the single Kohlers  is below the fuel level in a under seat tank if the tank is full.    This prevents  the fuel from draining back to the tank and the  pump from losing prime causing hard starting.     

The fuel pumps on the twin cyl. engines is higher than the tank fuel level so keeping the tank full will not help.  

 

I have a Command Pro engine and the fuel pump is on the back side and just above the top of the tank.

 

21 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

Thinking about Bobs idea of just using the electric pump as a primer.

 

A separate momentary push button primer switch on the pump would work, or it could be wired to the starter solenoid.

 

And Sarges concern with overheating at idle.    Could the electric pump simply be paralleled into the fuel line with Tees.    This should still create enough pressure to prime the mechanical pump and also create a path for the fuel to return to the tank at idle.

 

                                Thoughts?

 

In my case, that's where the light position comes in to play. The L  terminal becomes hot whenever the key in in the first position, engine running or not. In the run position L is not hot so when running the pump wouldn't have power. The parallel fuel lines is something to think about. As you said, enough pressure to prime things and a route for the mechanical pump to pull fuel without having to pull it through the electric pump.

 

But....don't the electric pumps shut off when the back pressure rises? :think:

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I used a Jeep CJ type fuel filter - it uses 5/16" inlet size hose and two outlets - the smaller one is a 1/4" bypass line. Filter is installed near the carb somewhere and they are fairly large but a decent micron filter if you get the WIX or similar quality ones. That bleeds off any excess pressure without starving the engine. The return line runs all the way back to a tee located at the bottom outlet of the fuel tank. Doing it this way will circulate some air bubbles - that's what happens without a separate return line. If your tank has a vent line - that could be used for a return instead and it would run solid fuel flow but you'd have to address some sort of vent in another way. We used this setup for years on off road engines running Weber carbs as they require a very low fuel pressure and most of the trucks were equipped with a return line - you could nearly run the engine upside down with the carb mods I used to build on the Weber carbs. Electric pumps have to circulate a certain amount of fuel to keep their solenoid cooled, some have a cutoff contact to prevent them getting hot over time but most still get pretty warm. Failures related to these pumps is always the coil overheating and burning out or the check valves fail. Since the cheap knockoffs are available versus US made Facet pumps they are a good option, cheap enough to not care if they fail over time versus the cost of the Facet. Most pump designs shut the power off when the pressure limit is reached - some do not and you'd just have to test yours for a constant draw.

 

The reason I built mine this way is the fact I drive it quite a distance from home - I'd prefer not to have to walk nearly a mile to get the truck/trailer and recover my tractor. Just making it more dependable for my uses, how you do yours is entirely up to you.

 

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Sarge

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What about a boat style fuel line pressure bulb as a "primer"...?

Possible cheap fix?

Just a thought...

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They work fine if they are installed at a low point in the line and with the outlet end pointed up. Like all mechanical pumps, they are also  just a two check valve hand pump.  They can usually be installed low in the system so they stay primed and if they are installed with the outlet end up, gravity helps to close and seal the valves.      I just  bought three more on fleabay.       3 for $10 w/free shipping.

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10 hours ago, pfrederi said:

4 position switch. Off / Acc and Ignition /  igniton only / start. not sure what the purpose was as they have a separate light switch.

My GT-14 had that switch but when it failed several years ago I replaced it with a normal one. I think the switch prevented the electric clutch from being engaged during cranking.

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What size crankshaft on the series 1 & 2 Kolher twin that came standard on C-175 ? (17H.P.)

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