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Been away from my project for a little while, thought I would give you guys an update. You all forgot to warn me how "addicting" this little hobby can be so I had to take some time off to catch up on some of my other projects and chores around the house!:lol: Anyway, not a lot new but here is where I'm at. Came up with this idea to re-face the spindle bearing areas to provide smooth surface for new thrust bearings. First I hand filed the worst of it down to get it close, being careful to keep it as true and perpendicular as I could. Then I spray adhesived a ring of sandpaper to a smooth washer & temporarily adhesived this to the axle casting. Then inserted the spindle and just hand rotated (similar to valve lapping) until all of the ridges and worn areas were gone. I plan on doing the same with the axle, only in reverse, once I have the new thrust bearings & see how much I need to remove from the bottom and top of casting. Hopefully this will true up all of the wear and provide two matching mating areas. Here is a comparison of before & after ( I did start filing on the left one before I thought it might be nice to take a picture).

(NOTE: Hope I'm not boring all of you with all of these pictures, if so, let me know & I'll cut back. Don't want to go overboard!)

 

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Here is the temporary sandpaper washer:

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While I have playing around with these bearings & such, thought it would be a good time to start stripping rust/old paint and prepping the front wheels. I used the electrolysis method for this which is not very fast but works pretty well and figured it could "cook" while I worked on other things. Again, before and after pictures comparing one completed wheel to the old original.

 

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And the stewing pot...

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Now I need to get a quick coat of primer on this before it needs done all over again. While I'm on this subject, I don't mean to stir up the old paint color issue all over again, but would like all of your professional opinions. Here is a photo of my original wheel. To my knowledge, these have never been painted at least not by me and ASSUME is the original color minus any darkening from grease stain over the years. The small circle indicates my test spots (all rattle cans): 1) Rustoleum Professional - Almond Gloss, 2) Krylon - Almond Gloss, 3) Krylon - Antique White. Based on what I have, the Rustoleum Almond Gloss is an almost perfect match. The large circle is where I gave it a quick spray over a larger area. I have read where some folks thought that the almond was too dark and preferred the ivorys and antique whites, but this is how it compares to my wheel, unless these wheels have been repainted at some point. Opinions PLEASE! , anyone using Almond and happy with it? :think:

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Color looks fine - due to age enamels will change color over time. I have some matched linen beige mixed up that was computer scanned from an NOS part that was in a box - still, it's a 40yr-old part, so some color change is expected from age. If it looks good to you in person - good enough . I would take it out in some warm sunlight after letting it fully cure - then the true color will show better. Don't use indoor lighting to match paint - only the sun will show true colors to the human eye. If you're happy with it - we are fine with that and everyone has an opinion, yours is what counts as it's your tractor.

 

Good move to true up those surfaces - the tool I made does that job but it still required some finish work , lapping works excellent and shows if any of the parts are out of alignment or bent.

 

Sarge

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Just wanted to update my post so you guys didn't think that I gave up yet:lol:. Mostly been tinkering around some with all of the custom work and fabrication that needs done. Got my order back from McMaster-Carr with most of the bearings and such that I needed, so I have been busy fitting, reaming, and pressing bearings along with fabricating of a few other parts. Still have a long way to go and quite a few more places that I intend on placing bearings that I need to address yet. This work is tedious and time consuming for me, especially having to do a lot of the work by hand not always having the right tools for the job. So far everything has been turning out OK (I hope) but takes me a lot longer to finish up compared to having a fully equipped machine shop to do the work. I am fortunate to have an old worn out LeBlond lathe for turning a few simple parts, but I wouldn't trust it enough for anything requiring any amount of precision. Oh well, I guess this is supposed to be a hobby/pastime that I hopefully can be proud of in the end. Still waiting for the weather to break also, as my hands are tied until I can get a lot of this stuff painted in my hillbilly paint booth (outdoors) before I can do very much reassembly work. Urethane paint is nasty enough stuff on its own without even considering doing any of that in my basement:-o! Anyway, here are a couple more pics just to keep you all updated on my progress.

 

Made up a couple of new tie rods:

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Also made a new axle pivot pin:

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I had mentioned earlier that the bolt had come out at some point, therefore, my frame cross piece was wallowed out on both ends where the pin was rotating in the frame. My fix was to go to Lowes and buy a generic 3/4" x 1" x 2" steel bushing and cut off two pieces as inserts. I fitted and brazed these into both areas of the frame, which I reamed out to accept 1" O.D. of the bushings on each end. Here is a pic:

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That's about all for now, I'll keep you all updated as best I can. Hopefully by this time next year, I might have a tractor again!:D And that is not to even mention that I have not even begun to do anything with the mower deck yet!  I'm sure that part of the project alone will be proof that we need to start that thread of "fun with bushings" as @WHX14 so correctly mentioned earlier.

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Nice job on the frame hole alignment - those are a pain . I generally weld the hole up where it worn, die grind it out until round enough to use a bridge reamer and cut it to fit bronze flange bearings. Solves that wear issue even if the pin can rotate loose - the pin will wear out first.

 

Sarge

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:handgestures-thumbupright: on the way you dealt with that axle pivot issues! Will have to file that away for fix for this problem! :handgestures-thumbupright:

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 10:35 AM, jebbear said:

, anyone using Almond and happy with it

I used this product once based on the ability to be chip resistant and was very happy with the color. very difficult to tell the difference from Rustoleum antique white.  It still did chip and scratch though.

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JEB, Its just a tractor, Did I say its just a tractor.... Holy tolerances Batman, your detail work is almost intimidating. NO you are not boring us, well at least me anyways, between your pictures and Sarge's "eye burner" answers we're getting an education here as we do all over this forum. That's the entire point of it . Very much enjoying your reports and findings as you go along.  Your workmanship is excellent.  At some point I have 2 WH's that need a freshening up so all this is a primer of what I'll be into. Thanks for taking us along on the ride. Your lathe may be a tad tired but your work doesn't show it. Very, Very nice job.:handgestures-thumbupright:

Chris

 

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10 hours ago, cpete1 said:

JEB, Its just a tractor, Did I say its just a tractor.... Holy tolerances Batman, your detail work is almost intimidating. NO you are not boring us, well at least me anyways, between your pictures and Sarge's "eye burner" answers we're getting an education here as we do all over this forum. That's the entire point of it . Very much enjoying your reports and findings as you go along.  Your workmanship is excellent.  At some point I have 2 WH's that need a freshening up so all this is a primer of what I'll be into. Thanks for taking us along on the ride. Your lathe may be a tad tired but your work doesn't show it. Very, Very nice job.:handgestures-thumbupright:

Chris

 

 

'Pete, I couldn'a sedditt better myself.

As far as I'm concerned, you can't really over-post. I learned a long time ago to get ALL the info I can and sort out what I don't need at the time. Every once in a while there's that little "eureka" moment on that one little detail I didn't know about ... til then.

 

I want to thank all of the contributors of this post for a wealth of info I'll keep set aside for future use.

 

My tractors are both well worn and need to be functional so these "fixes" you're doing ... and best of all ... documenting ... are invaluable to me!

I've learned a lot in the last year or so from this forum about many things (not just WH) and it's very much appreciated.

 

I'll be following along here.

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My point is to prove they can nearly live forever with a few minor changes - parts are becoming either scarce or have already gone out of stock, got to be able to stop the wear and save/repair what you have. The cast front axles should never be scrapped - that is one part we cannot duplicate. Same with those spindles - they are far more difficult to make from scratch than you'd ever believe - which is why no one is offering any new ones. I see too many of these parts being tossed and replaced with used - that option is getting pretty limited and driving up the cost of good used parts and causing otherwise repairable machines to get parted out since the sum of their parts is worth more money than the machine as a whole. I'm tempted to see if I can get folks to send front axles/spindles here as a set to be refurbished , but the shipping cost is the problem and makes it something that most can't afford.

 

I do encourage everyone to hang onto those "worn out" parts for the entire steering system - eventually we are going to need them.

 

Sarge

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Thanks everyone for all of the nice compliments and especially the tips and ideas as this work progresses. I know that a lot of you have been through this restoration work far more times than I have and I truly appreciate all of the help that you all have provided so far. I'll be more than happy to keep posting pictures or any little "fixes" that I come up with along the way, not saying that I have any new life changing ideas that many of you have not already implemented. Most of my ideas stem from necessity, as I encounter issues, study them, and convince myself that there has to be a way of doing this. Usually it works, sometimes it doesn't, but stubborn that I am I'll keep trying until things do work. Sometimes my solutions may not be the best way of doing something as most are not be coming out of a text book, so please, if you see something that I'm doing wrong or you see a better way, PLEASE let me know. I don't take offense to any suggestions as this is all a learning experience and I'm sure that many of the pros on this site have probably forgotten far more than I'll ever know. Anyway, I'll keep plugging away, just bear with me because I'm not the fastest at doing things!

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So far what you've been doing is stellar - nothing to apologize for here at all. Everyone has their own way of doing things - I've learned a lot from others over the years and with that knowledge I add my own twists here and there to solve a problem. I just like things to last a very long time and I don't like doing work over again some day down the road - do it once and be done sort of mentality...lol. I do like how you've shown what age and some minor wear has done - that part is hard to document and pretty rare that someone has taken the time/care to do that - it's a great example of why bronze/brass/steel wear bushings should be used in high stress areas - kudos to you. It fits right in with my argument on why this stuff should not be scrapped - those used, worn parts can be repaired easily enough and kept in service for another 50yrs + with a lot less damage from wear and can be rebuilt again indefinitely - cheaply too. I like to think some day in the distant future someone will see this work and wonder who did it but would appreciate why it's still in serviceable condition...

 

Sarge

 

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Beautiful day here in SW Pennsylvania, so I decided to try out my multi-tasking and started into something completely different from what I had been working on, so I tore into the transmission. Thought it would be a good day to sit outside and clean parts and not have to worry about slopping oil all through the basement. I believe that as of now I have every possible nut, bolt, pin, part, etc. removed from the tractor and short of the engine, not much has been reassembled yet. I think my wife thinks I'm totally nuts and that this thing will never get put back together because it seems that there are now parts scattered everywhere through the house! :-o I think I read somewhere in another forum that one of our members likes to work in organized chaos, well that is kind of where I'm at and oh what fun it is. Anyway, a couple of new pics and also a couple of questions concerning the tranny.

 

Overall, the transmission was about what I expected to find:

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Then, when I started removing the gears, I found some metal shavings on the end of one shaft and in the cup of the needle bearings:

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As soon as I picked up the case to inspect further, I found out why:

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So, this brings me to my first question. I know that I need at least this needle bearing, I think it is a #1532 if my eyes are not crossed on the parts diagram. What do you guys think, should I just try to find one of these, or should I go the whole route and replace ALL of them? I see that wheelhorseman sells a complete kit, which I am going to need new seals, gasket, boot, etc. anyway, but I was curious what you all normally do as far as replacing bearings. All of the other needle bearings "appear" to be OK, and the 1533 ball bearings are as tight as a frog's behind so I think I'm good there. I just hate the thought of replacing what may be good OEM bearings with what are probably all aftermarket bearings if there is nothing wrong with what's in there now. Or do I just assume that mine are all worn to some degree and on the verge of failure anyway? I may not be able to find just the one bearing that I need anyway. Thoughts Please?

 

Question 2, How much wear is acceptable wear on gear teeth? I attached a couple of pics of my 3523 high gear and the 3524 low gear. Both have wear on the ends of the teeth. I believe I read somewhere that if the tractor tends to pop out of high gear, that the 3523 is the probable culprit. I never noticed this happening on my tractor, but I hate to put it all back together and find out that I do have a problem. Again, I see that wheelhorseman sells the 3523, but I don't even know that the 3524 is available anywhere. All of the other tranny gears have some wear, but these two are the worst. So, should I at least replace the 3523 or am I over analyzing this whole thing since I don't recall any issues with the tractor anyway?

 

Here is the 3523, all of the inner gear corners are pretty well rounded. I took a photo of the opposite side (outer teeth) which are also rounded, but I didn't attach it because when I went to upload it I saw it was out of focus and didn't show up anyway.

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And the 3524, from both sides:

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Mostly wondering what all of you have done in the past with your own tractors with these issues. Again,  :thanks:all so much in advance for your thoughts on this.

 

 

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I was showing my amazing honey some of your progress... and the mount for your drill press.

She got a kick out of the fact that you had very light colored carpet in the work area. :lol:

 

I agree with your concern on the OEM  bearings.

I'll let others comment on the gears but I'd leave as many original bearings IN as I could.

Especially when frogsbehind tight. 

 

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7 hours ago, jebbear said:

What do you guys think, should I just try to find one of these, or should I go the whole route and replace ALL

:text-coolphotos:     I would clean the two transmission halves in a parts washer and replace the bearings that need it, the others are good for another five decades. The gears you have pictured look very good and shouldn't present any problem. 

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That's a beautiful immaculate looking transmission compared to the two suburban trannys I've worked on. I replaced all the bearing on one due to the majority being bad. On the other I only replaced 2 rough ones. Hopefully @stevasaurus our transmission Guru will be along shortly to comment on those gears. 

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Wow, what a great thread.  @jebbear...I have to apologize, this is the 1st time I have seen this thread.  I have had some eye surgery and it is hard to sit here and read long and involved posts, but my name was mentioned and I came in and took a look at the 3rd page.  I was so impressed, I went back to the start and read the whole thing.  When I am asked to give advise, I like to know what the history is and what the owner is going to do with his horse after he is finished.  In your 1st post, you mentioned that you were intending to use this horse for all the things that you and the previous owner used it for.  This is not going to be a "Trailer Queen".  I still have 2 of the "Short Frame Square Hoods", and they do not get any pasture play at all either.  I envy you guys that have a lathe and milling machine and the room and expertise to use it.  :bow-blue: 

   Ha...this might be as long of a post as Sarge's.  :banana-linedance:OK...here is the deal.  You say the #1533 bearings are great.  Cool.  That tells me...you can tell if the other needle bearings are suspect or not.  You want to change all the seals and the gasket for sure.  All of the bearings and seals in your transmission are readily available from Lowell, Motion Industries, NAPA, etc.  Lowell has the only new #1533's.  You can easily change out the bearings that have some wear, and now is the time.  I would not change out OK bearings.  :handgestures-thumbupright: 

   Question...the trans oil in the pictures...is that the original oil (no flushing)??  If so, your gears look great and I would go with them...I would also think that most of your bearings are OK also.  With the job you are doing, I feel like telling you to go with a lot of what you have in the transmission, is like cheating...but it comes down to why fix it if it is not broke.  :occasion-xmas:  Your 2nd and 3rd fork gear even looks good, but if you were going to replace anything...that would be it (and save the old one)

   If you do decide to go with Lowell's 2nd/3rd fork gear...you need to make sure that the number of splines in the center is the same as the one you have.  They made 2 kinds and one will not fit on your splined shaft.  Lowell knows about this.

   Seeing what happened to the M-16121 (#1532) bearing under the large part of the mushroom gear, I would probably want to replace the bearing on the other end where the brake shaft comes out...KOYO B-1612 (#1530...new #704019).  :handgestures-thumbupright:

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12 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

... and the mount for your drill press.

@ebinmaine.. Want to give credit where credit is due, I think you are referring to the photo that @WHX14 posted on the thread with the drill press adjustable vise. That is a sweet set up. I will need to do something similar as I also intend on drilling my steering block for a bearing, but I don't have the variable angle vice. Fortunately, my drill press table tilts and locks to a set angle, but it will be a lot harder to get the proper alignment in all directions. I sure hope I don't trash it in the process.

12 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

...very light colored carpet it the work area.

LOL. :lol:That very light colored carpet is actually in my living room where I took some of the pics. You must not have believed me when I said that I have parts of this tractor scattered throughout the entire house! Actually, I just took a couple of photos there so they would show up better with a light background as opposed to my cluttered work area. Some of the other photos I took on top of a light throw rug sitting on top of the wife's washing machine (which I am constantly take an ear beating for):bitch:.

 

@stevasaurus Thanks for all of the great advice. I definitely plan on keeping her as a "Work Horse" if and when I get this restore finished. I always was one to believe as to why have a neat toy if you never really get to play with it! About the bearings, is there an easy way to actually measure how much wear there is in the needles? Of course the one I posted a pic of (1532) is obviously shot, but I'm not sure how to properly evaluate all of the others. They are all still contained in their races, but should there be any, even ever so minor, "wiggle room" by the needles? I don't have a new one in hand to compare to, but several do have an ever so minor lateral movement in the races. Not sure if ANY play is normal or more importantly acceptable, or should they be absolutely tight with no shift off of their axis? 

1 hour ago, stevasaurus said:

Question...the trans oil in the pictures...is that the original oil (no flushing)??  If so, your gears look great and I would go with them...

Yes, that is all original oil that was leftover when I split the cases. Of course it has been changed on occasion down through the years, but what you see is the way I found it. Besides the bearings, haven't quite convinced myself what to do about the 3rd gear yet. Looking at it in my hand as opposed to the photos, it kind of worries me a little, especially on those inner teeth since there is way less mesh area here as opposed to the external teeth. Again, I just don't have the expertise to judge what is acceptable as opposed to what will give me headaches down the road. But that is another $85 question, should I or shouldn't I, take another ear beating :bitch:for spending more money. But I absolutely want to do this job right. Thanks for the advice on the number of splines, I was not aware of this and will check further into which one I have.

Forgive me but I'm the new guy on the block and haven't had the privilege to personally meet any of you all yet, but I assume Lowell is @wheelhorseman? If so, I have already ordered a couple of things from him recently and received stellar service for the transaction. I do plan on placing an order for the seals, gasket, boot, etc. but still deciding on whether to spring for the needle bearings also. Regardless, I definitely need the one, just not sure about the whole set, so any guidance concerning properly evaluating the wear on the others would be greatly appreciated. In all seriousness, I am trying to watch how much this little hobby is costing, but if something needs replaced, then it needs replaced and added cost is not a valid defense of cutting corners and doing something stupid that I will regret later.

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4 minutes ago, jebbear said:

You must not have believed me when I said that I have parts of this tractor scattered throughout the entire house! Actually, I just took a couple of photos there so they would show up better with a light background as opposed to my cluttered work area. Some of the other photos I took on top of a light throw rug sitting on top of the wife's washing machine (which I am constantly take an ear beating for):bitch:.

Oh... I believe you!

I'd do the same thing.... I'm lucky my honey is VERY patient.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, jebbear said:

my drill press table tilts and locks to a set angle, but it will be a lot harder to get the proper alignment in all directions

That's what I have as well.... really just this past year learning to fully utilize all the neat stuff I have.

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Regardless, I definitely need the one, just not sure about the whole set, so any guidance concerning properly evaluating the wear on the others would be greatly appreciated. In all seriousness, I am trying to watch how much this little hobby is costing, but if something needs replaced, then it needs replaced and added cost is not a valid defense of cutting corners and doing something stupid that I will regret later.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly...Lowell is great people and will sell you only what you need and ask for...do not need to buy the whole kit.  My point is this...everything in that trans is available...bearings and seals in 1 or 2 days...if I was going to replace anything...it would be the 2nd/3rd fork gear...only because you are going to use the horse like it was new.  Save the old gear...it is not that bad and your choice.  Actually, dropping the trans is not a big deal if you missed something.  I would tell you if it looked bad...it looks good for  a horse that has been around for 70 years.  I do not think you would go wrong if you just replaced seals and gaskets and that one bearing.  Try the parts in the bearings...if it feels good...you will be OK.  If you are made of money...go for it.  If you are not made of money...it will be easy to fix if you missed something.  Again...don't fix it if it ain't broke.  Listen...nobody can actually tell you what to think or do in this case.  PM sent.  :)

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@oliver2-44  Jim, you can mention my name anytime...I just spent over 2 hours talking with @jebbear (Don) on the phone.  I hope I have him talked into going to the Big Show this year.  :)

 

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Evidently I ramble on a bit too much, lol..but here it goes again.

 

Look at how close the tolerances are on those gears - they are not fitted all that tight from the factory to start with. Yes, 70yrs takes it's toll but there are key areas to address if you can afford it - this will prevent future failure and possibly damage to other parts as well. Any shaft that a gear set rides upon is important - just a tiny bit of play in bearings will create a wear problem in gear mesh and if allowed to go far enough it can destroy them quickly under a load. Transmissions have a lot of opposing forces - fix those areas the most besides the obvious broken or worn out parts. I would put a gear cluster in it - 2nd gear is used to do a lot of heavier work on most of those early models. As Steve said , partially assembling the shafts/gears will help determine the real wear points - fix those bearings that show signs of play and leave the rest alone unless there's an obvious problem. A full bearing kit plus that cluster isn't exactly cheap but then again you'd basically have a brand new transmission aside from other lightly worn gears - what you have is amazing for it's age and hours of use.

 

That's how I make the choices when it comes to rebuilding stuff unless it's an engine. Figure out where the stress is at in drive line parts, replace what is needed and that's plenty good enough. For as simply as these are built as said - it's not all that hard to go into it again if needed. Again, just an opinion here - we all have one.

 

Sarge

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@Sarge, , You are OK and I hope I get to meet you one of these days.  :handgestures-thumbupright:  You have a lot to offer and I, for one, am glad you do.  :USA:

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21 hours ago, jebbear said:

drill press adjustable vise.

By the way Jeb ..I picked that vise up out of a scrap metal pile!!

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2 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

@Sarge, , You are OK and I hope I get to meet you one of these days.  :handgestures-thumbupright:  You have a lot to offer and I, for one, am glad you do.  :USA:

I'll second that! I've learned a lot of neat stuff from Sarge.

 

 

3 minutes ago, WHX14 said:

By the way Jeb ..I picked that vise up out of a scrap metal pile!!

Jim, if that thing gets in your way you go right ahead and send it out up here to Maine. I won't even be mad.:lol:

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5 hours ago, WHX14 said:

I picked that vise up out of a scrap metal pile!!

That's unreal. I wish that the scrap heaps and dumpsters around here contained gems like that! What would ever cause someone to toss that. Great find!

 

5 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

I'll second that! I've learned a lot of neat stuff from Sarge.

And I will emphatically 'third' that. @Sarge and all of the rest of you have contributed a wealth of advice. I also hope that someday I have the opportunity and privilege to meet all of you guys in person. I'm still the new guy on the block, but I couldn't have possibly received a better welcome. You all have made me feel like I have been a part of this neighborhood for years! @stevasaurus, I really enjoyed our "short" (almost 3 hours..)conversation on the phone last night. Besides tractors and transmissions, I think at some point, we discussed a whole lifetime of other topics.

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