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ebinmaine

74 B80 not charging. Regulator putting out NEGATIVE

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Here's where I'm at so far:

I've noticed a few times over the past few weeks the ammeter reads close to zero and doesn't move at all.

I figured I had a bad ground or a bad ammeter.

 

Removed the bracket that holds the ammeter and voltage regulator.

Removed the ammeter because I do not like them. I can read more from a voltmeter and they're far less dangerous. That stayed in the parts bin in case I need the housing later.

I ordered a volt gauge this morning.

Removed the regulator and wire brushed the contact points on the back. (They were rusty.)

Wire brushed the bracket.

Lightly scraped the dirt/dust out of fins of the regulator.

Ran a ground wire from the mounting bolt of the regulator directly to the negative battery post. (Insurance)

Re-installed and checked output of system FROM engine per @953 nut 's suggestion. (thank you)

Output TO regulator seems fine at 24 -26 volts at half throttle and over 40 at full throttle.

Output FROM regulator... Is MINUS 6 - 10 volts depending on RPM.

 

Ummm, huh??

 

 

20171107_102436.jpg.4859ec616407415b831fcda3823d62d7.jpg

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Did you switch your multimeter from AC you used to measure the stator output to DC to read the regulator output?

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32 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

Did you switch your multimeter from AC you used to measure the stator output to DC to read the regulator output?

I think so but a couple hours has passed so I've filed all that in the trash of the mind.:lol:

I'll do the tests again to double check.

 

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8 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

do the tests again to double check.

Yes I've had that forget to switch the DMM  brain fart before. You might know this already too but if you reverse the DMM leads it will read a neg. voltage Also check the voltage of the battery when the tractor is not running. Should get 12-13 VDC depending on the shape of the battery. With the engine running should have 13.6-14 VDC

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I just went and double checked the settings...

I have 12.45V DC OFF. (It's been hooked up to the charger.)

AC readings are good coming out but I switched to DC and - take a reading fully connected and running, 12+ volts... should be higher, I know.

I disconnect the orange wire so as to eliminate connection to the battery and it reads -4V or so at idle up to about -10 or so at full throttle. Right off the lower single terminal of the voltage regulator.

8 minutes ago, WHX12 said:

With the engine running should have 13.6-14 VDC

Reads the same, on or off. And the ammeter not moving. That's what got me checking and cleaning....

 

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Sounds like a bad voltage regulator to me.

I too like to run a ground wire from a regulator mounting bolt to the (-) side of the battery....as you say, "insurance"!

Edited by KC9KAS
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4 minutes ago, KC9KAS said:

 

I too like to run a ground wire from a regulator mounting bolt to the (-) side of the battery....as you say, "insurance"!

To give credit where credit is due - @Sarge mentioned that in a post I found earlier today

5 minutes ago, KC9KAS said:

Sounds like a bad voltage regulator to me.

 

Is there another way to bench test these?

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Regulators need to see battery voltage before they can regulate the charge current. Should never run the engine without the regulator connected to a battery.

Check the voltage across the battery posts.

Now move the red lead to the regulator DC terminal. 

You should have the same reading meaning the path the current takes to get to the battery is OK.

You may need to turn the key to the run position without the engine running because some models use the ignition switch to connect the regulator output to the battery.

 

Garry

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10 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

Regulators need to see battery voltage before they can regulate the charge current. Should never run the engine without the regulator connected to a battery.

Ahh, ok.

I'm relatively new to this fix-it-myself thing. I enjoy problem solving but I have a lot to learn.

Curious to know How a regulator works...

 

13 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

Check the voltage across the battery posts.

Now move the red lead to the regulator DC terminal. 

I did these earlier today and got the same readings. Around 12.5 VDC. If it's the same running or not, (can) that tell me I have a bad regulator?

 

16 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

You should have the same reading meaning the path the current takes to get to the battery is OK.

You may need to turn the key to the run position without the engine running because some models use the ignition switch to connect the regulator output to the battery.

 

Here-in lies another potential issue. The guy that wired the whole tractor (I bought it as a pile of parts) is a Very experienced Toro tech and he's the main reason I was looking for a :wh:... But he wired it non-stock, at least for this one. :roll:

 

Incorrect ignition switch, but starts via separate switched coil wire. Ammeter was put to wrong place. Regulator wire may be too.

All are fine for function but terrible to deal with gremlins when they pop up.

 

I'll have to change a couple wires out to eliminate possible bad butt connections and try this again... Not till tomorrow... 

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44 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

Check the voltage across the battery posts.

Now move the red lead to the regulator DC terminal. 

You should have the same reading meaning the path the current takes to get to the battery is OK.

I just went and did this again with engine Off.

12.85 VDC to both . Wire appears good.

 

FYI - the orange wire Used to go from voltage regulator to ammeter to solenoid. I removed the non-working ammeter today as stated earlier... It now goes from VR to solenoid.

 

IF the ammeter was bad could it have fried the VR?

 

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Sounds like a bad reg. EB Ther was a guy here @Save Old Iron who isn't on anymore but was a for real electronic, anything electrical for that matter, guru and dissected one just for grins. He did a nice thread on it but Il be danged if I can find it. He was a real asset to our community. You want to learn about

17 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

 How a regulator works...

go browse some of his threads....good stuff! Unfortunately a lot of his pics were lost to photp bucket greed. 

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/profile/1689-save-old-iron/?do=content&type=forums_topic&change_section=1

 

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1 minute ago, WHX12 said:

Sounds like a bad reg. EB Ther was a guy here @Save Old Iron who isn't on anymore but was a for real electronic, anything electrical for that matter, guru and dissected one just for grins. He did a nice thread on it but Il be danged if I can find it. He was a real asset to our community. You want to learn about

go browse some of his threads....good stuff! Unfortunately a lot of his pics were lost to photp bucket greed. 

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/profile/1689-save-old-iron/?do=content&type=forums_topic&change_section=1

 

That's the way I'm leaning too.

Yeah, I've read a lot of his stuff. Very bright indeed.

Photobucket... Baaahhhh !!!  :snooty:

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@ebinmaine Curious to know How a regulator works...

 

There are different voltage regulators depending on their design,like it may be a simple "Feed Forward"or it may include "negetive feedback control loop ".So depending on design it may regulate one or more AC or DC  voltages.


Working of various voltage regulators base on its designing and applications are ---

Electronic voltage regulators--A simple voltage regulator can be made from a resistor in series with a diode (or series of diodes). Due to the logarithmic shape of diode V-I curves, the voltage across the diode changes only slightly due to changes in current drawn or changes in the input. When precise voltage control and efficiency are not important, this design may work fine.
Feedback voltage regulators operate by comparing the actual output voltage to some fixed reference voltage. Any difference is amplified and used to control the regulation element in such a way as to reduce the voltage error. This forms a negetive feedback control loop; increasing the open loop gain tends to increase regulation accuracy but reduce stability (stability is avoidance of oscillation, or ringing, during step changes). There will also be a trade-off between stability and the speed of the response to changes. If the output voltage is too low (perhaps due to input voltage reducing or load current increasing), the regulation element is commanded, up to a point, to produce a higher output voltage–by dropping less of the input voltage , or to draw input current for longer periods if the output voltage is too high, the regulation element will normally be commanded to produce a lower voltage. However, many regulators have over-current protection, so that they will entirely stop sourcing current .

Electromechanical Regulators--In electromechanical regulators, voltage regulation is easily accomplished by coiling the sensing wire to make an electromagnet. The magnetic field produced by the current attracts a moving ferrous core held back under spring tension or gravitational pull. As voltage increases, so does the current, strengthening the magnetic field produced by the coil and pulling the core towards the field. The magnet is physically connected to a mechanical power switch, which opens as the magnet moves into the field. As voltage decreases, so does the current, releasing spring tension or the weight of the core and causing it to retract. This closes the switch and allows the power to flow once more.
If the mechanical regulator design is sensitive to small voltage fluctuations, the motion of the solenoid core can be used to move a selector switch across a range of resistances or transformer windings to gradually step the output voltage up or down, or to rotate the position of a moving-coil AC regulator.

Coil rotation AC voltage regulators-- These type of regulators uses the principle of a fixed-position field coil and a second field coil that can be rotated on an axis in parallel with the fixed coil.
When the movable coil is positioned perpendicular to the fixed coil, the magnetic forces acting on the movable coil balance each other out and voltage output is unchanged. Rotating the coil in one direction or the other away from the center position will increase or decrease voltage in the secondary movable coil.
This type of regulator can be automated via a servo control mechanism to advance the movable coil position in order to provide voltage increase or decrease. A braking mechanism or high ratio gearing is used to hold the rotating coil in place against the powerful magnetic forces acting on the moving coil.


Constant Voltage Transformer--The ferroresonanttransformer, ferroresonant regulator or constant-voltage transformer is a type of saturating transformer used as a voltage regulator. These transformers use a LC circuit composed of a high-voltage resonant winding and a capacitor to produce a nearly constant average output voltage with a varying input current or varying load. The circuit has a primary on one side of a magnet shunt and the tuned circuit coil and secondary on the other side. The regulation is due to magnetic saturation in the section around the secondary.
The ferroresonant approach is attractive due to its lack of active components, relying on the square loop saturation characteristics of the tank circuit to absorb variations in average input voltage. Saturating transformers provide a simple rugged method to stabilize an AC power supply.

AC Voltage Stabilizers--These regulators are basically tap changers used to regulate the voltage of AC distribution lines.When Voltage is not in acceptable range then change the tap on auto transformer,by changing the tap turns ratio of the transformer changes and voltage in the desired range can be obtained.

DC Voltage Stabilizers--These regulators  regulate the voltage using shunt regulators  such as Zener diode. It works only on specified voltage   will conduct as much current as required to hold its terminal voltage to that specified voltage. The power supply is designed to only supply a maximum amount of current that is within the safe operating capability of the shunt regulating device .

 

@ebinmaine https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Terrel+how+to+troubleshoot+a+voltage+regulator+on+kohler+engine&&view=detail&mid=BA0351A2CED635847525BA0351A2CED635847525&FORM=VRDGAR

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Don't discount the wonky wiring job from someone else . If you can lay out where all the wires run we might find a problem .

 

Also , don't rule out that ignition switch . I had a lot of problems with my C-160 at one time not wanting to fully charge all the time - it showed the voltage running at 14.2v but it was not delivering the amps to the battery due to a bad contact in the switch . Swapped out that one for another I had - charged the battery like a champ and consistently started far better . Also , do not trust the UH1 batteries made now - the plates and the way they are attaching the posts to the end set is getting lighter in material all the time - all while the prices continue to climb . All of mine are getting changed to active glass mat small car batteries when they go bad now - I'm not paying $40-$50 for a UH1 that has a 90-day warranty or less and some won't even make it that far due to the Kohler shaking them to pieces . The use of highly recycled lead in those UH1 batteries is getting too contaminated these days and they rot very quickly - especially when used on Briggs engines that have a ghost ac voltage present in the electrical system - the posts are rotting off faster than ever .

 

The ground wire stops a lot of issues when you ground the case of the regulator directly to the battery negative side - it also helps it read the battery voltage a lot better than trying to use the frame connection points that will corrode over time - not to mention running that current through mounting points can actually cause the rust we see too often . In some ways - using frame grounds can turn the vehicle into an anode - all my vehicles get separated grounds for all the lighting and accessories - it's sort of an insurance policy . I noticed last week the 16 Auto is charging at over 15.2v on the gauge - it's lost the ground through the dash tower to the battery and I need to ground it's case - classic symptom of the regulator not being able to truly read battery voltage . Resistance in those mounting points and the sheet metal/frame builds up over time leading to this issue - eventually either the regulator will commit suicide or the battery can explode or both - don't risk it . I use at least a 14ga wire , soldered/shrink booted ring directly on one of the mounting bolts on the regulator and run that wire to the negative battery post - all connections get non-oxidizing grease to protect them . They will still corrode over time so they need to be checked immediately if the voltage starts acting up . I'm not a total purist so all of my machines get the amp gauge replaced with a volt meter - I have a very high quality clamp meter for checking charge/start/draw current if needed .

 

Also - on equipment that gets a lot of accessories I prefer to feed those with a constant duty relay and move the current draw away from the ignition switch . Most ignition switches can't handle more than 15-20 amps dc - adding a lot of lighting and such will eventually kill those contacts . This moves the draw current to a heavier circuit triggered for power off the key , but isolates it away from the main tractor wiring - same with vehicles and using a separate fuse block , it stops a lot off problems down the road . If you run the charging wire off the charge system to that same point it can read the current draw better but that's only necessary for equipment running high current loads to accessories such as a winch , ect...makes a big difference .

 

madelectrical.com is a great source of how to wire things for proper charging in automotive dc use .

 

Sarge

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9 hours ago, Sarge said:

the wonky wiring job from someone else . If you can lay out where all the wires run we might find a problem .

 

Also , don't rule out that ignition switch

I'm ordering a regulator And  ignition switch And  re-wiring back to factory schematic.

Only a matter of time before another issue pops up on 40+ year old machines so I'll be able to diag more accurately at that point... 

 

9 hours ago, Sarge said:

Kohler shaking them (battery) to pieces...

 

Anyone have suggestions for keeping the battery in place tighter? pieces of rubber or whatever?

 

 

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14 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

I'm ordering a regulator And  ignition switch And  re-wiring back to factory schematic.

Only a matter of time before another issue pops up on 40+ year old machines so I'll be able to diag more accurately at that point... 

 

 

Anyone have suggestions for keeping the battery in place tighter? pieces of rubber or whatever?

 

 

WH used two sizes of Battery boxes over the years.  The older larger one will snugly hold a Group 22NF battery.  Newer small ones hold the more modern small Lawn tractor batteries.  I use wooden blocks and some scrap inner tube pieces to hold small batteries in big trays.

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I've tried everything , making the battery tight as possible with padding , making it sort of float with even more padding and just clamping it down very tight with no padding - they just do not last due to the Kohler beating on them . AGM batteries can withstand vibration far better , as well as extreme heat - which is the environment they live with in our tractors . Older batteries had much heavier plates and more robust terminal tabs compared to the modern version - they are cheaper and much thinner for a higher profit not to mention the purity of the lead alloy in the plates . I've got two left that are over 5yrs old and still working fine , 2 others that have been replaced twice in 3 years - and those cost twice what they used to . I'm going to hit the battery group sizing charts and try to find an appropriate AGM small car battery to fit the stock box dimensions - it has to work better than what they are selling us now . Worst one is the D180 - between the vibration from the big twin opposed engine and it's high amp draw on the starter it only has one short chance of starting before the battery just runs out of steam - and that's a 425cc rated battery less than a year old . In super cold weather - forget it , have to grab the charger or the truck and jump it for that initial cold start .

 

Sears sold us out when they stop making the Die Hard Gold series - those were rumored to be made by Odyssey , one of the best in the business . I have one of those that is over 6yrs old and still works fine on the old 1277 - and it's being beaten by a starter/generator to boot . Most are made by Johnson Controls and have become useless in the last few years - hence most having at best a 90-day warranty and no real pro-rating if they fail - it's a rotten way to treat consumers but it's how many are doing business now . Ask around at any Auto Parts store - the guys that know their stuff well will just shake their heads and warn you they won't last , they hate having irate customers that feel like they've been ripped off , which is exactly what happens .

 

There does seem to be a difference in OEM installed batteries as well - ones directly from JD/CC/ect seem to last quite a lot longer - I'd suspect if you dig into it those are specified at a higher quality to prevent warranty issues with customers on new equipment . You will generally pay a lot more for a battery from one of the big dealers - but maybe it's a better deal in the long run...hard telling . I know in the Automotive world batteries from any of the Big Three or Toyota seem to last forever - my '08 Tacoma had an original battery that tested out fine at 8yrs old when I traded it off .

 

Sarge

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7 hours ago, Sarge said:

...my '08 Tacoma had an original battery that tested out fine at 8yrs old when I traded it off ...

My 2014 Tacoma OEM battery failed at 4-1/2 years.

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33 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

2014 Tacoma OEM battery failed at 4-1/2 years.

Bob, have you been time traveling?     2014 + 4.5 = next year some time.      :ychain:

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Ooops!! Off by a little.

 

Answer to the riddle is...truck was manufactured in October 2013 (2014 model year). So actually, I only time-traveled 6 months.

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Well , guess they went the same way as the UH1 lawn/garden battery - evidently . I hope that's not the case in my Dodge pickup - it's a '14 and that is one huge battery in it ....

 

There was a reason I kept that Tacoma for so long - that generation in my opinion was a better truck , except the rusting issues in the frames and the notoriously weak rear springs . I got tired of fighting with the dealer over the spring recall and traded it off - the Hemi 1/2 ton gets far better mileage and doesn't have a weak/anemic V6 in it . Not to mention , the thing will easily pull a house and even pulling my utility trailer loaded does better on fuel than the Taco ever though of . I do miss it , just had an odd comfort to it despite the ride quality and wanting to squat the rear at the 300lb load mark ...plus you could easily park it nearly anywhere and the locking rear diff was nice on work sites .

 

Don't know the answer to the battery dilemma - but it is getting worse for sure . i'd gladly pay double for one that you can trust past the 6mo-1yr mark , but have yet to find any .

 

The issue is bad enough I'm looking into buying a jump pack - getting tired of using jumper cables at random to start my equipment , there is no reason for that in my opinion .

 

Sarge

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On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 5:23 PM, ebinmaine said:

Anyone have suggestions for keeping the battery in place tighter? pieces of rubber or whatever

This works really slick EB ... battery stays put. This is on the larger of the two batteries Paul mentioned above.

I lined the tray with a sticky back foam padding from Ace. I believe it was in the aisle with the chair feet bottoms so it was some kind of furniture/floor bottom protection. Stumbled on it quite by accident. but worked really slick. About an 1/8" thick and cut to fit. Batter fits nice and snug in it.

 

 The battery hold in clamp idea I stole from @Achto who did it on his 1076. Take the flimsy piece of flat stock and toss it in the scrap mental bin. Cut an appropriate length of 3/4 x 3/4 angle iron and drill 1/4" holes for the studs. Radius the corners on the bench grinder for a smooth look.  Get two rubber isolation mounts pictured. :text-google: 1/4' rubber isolation mounts and you'll  find scads of them very cheap. Dan and I used lots of them in Harley builds.

Put them in your cordless drill and while rotating cut them to length using a razor knife and a drop of oil. they will cut easily and clean.  Mount them on the angle after a shot of regal red. this battery doesn't move at all  with all that Kohler pounding & shaking and even garden plow bouncing around.

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shopping.jpg

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