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Sarge

Test firing Big Ugly and the new exhaust

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16 minutes ago, Sarge said:

camera's microphone will show the sound too well , but so far I like it

 

You HAVE had a fun time with the "Big D" I dearly love them but when one breaks it can be a handful!

 

Your exhaust is similar to what I have done to my 180 & 200. I used a muffler listed as from "Cub Cadet" they are very reasonable and with the throttle at speed the sound sends cold chills down my spine:woohoo: I love it!

IMG_3363.JPG.c5446c2367e3e946ecb7cb58f5d55951.JPG

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Sweet  sound............:)

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I think they sound great!!

  But is your throttle really that hard to move up and down? 

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Yeah - the throttle is that stiff - need to address it . The F/R linkage was the same way - took care of that when I was swapping out the pumps , just needed every single part of it cleaned and properly lubed . Someone had used what I think is chain lube on lots of these parts - but the stuff got extremely sticky and hardened . Brake cleaner will barely touch it .

 

The tubing I used is 1-1/4" to match the port size exactly up to the mufflers - then it's 1-1/2" from there . Gives it a unique tone but under a hard load it does bark a bit . I found a slight leak last nite after the second burn-in run on the paint - not the hydraulic line manifold but with a mirror it appears to be one of the aluminum pump housing bolts - will pull the left side panel today and figure it out . This pump is extremely smooth and seems to have a lot more response than the original .

 

I'd imagine the engine will pull a lot better than with the stock pipes - they were plugging up inside from all the rust flakes pretty badly , now it can actually breathe .

 

I agree , love the big D's but when they break they are a true pia....

 

Sarge

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Btw....

 

Anyone truly familiar with the twin K's crankcase breather system ? This engine is starting to develop a few small areas where it wants to weep oil - front pto bearing plate and the dip stick itself particularly ...??

 

Sarge

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WOW  !!   That engine sounds great. Congrats, great job  !!  Thanks for the video.   :thumbs2:

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On 10/5/2017 at 10:54 AM, pacer said:

I used a muffler listed as from "Cub Cadet"

I did the same on my little B80... love the  notes at idle.

On 10/5/2017 at 10:28 AM, Sarge said:

the camera's microphone will show the sound too well

Sounds great Sarge.

Thanks for the Vid.

Like the trailer too....

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One of these days that trailer is getting finished , or at least made a little larger to allow an engine driven welder and small engine/compressor for doing field work . Tired of borrowing a friend's generator and hauling my Miller Dynasty around to do portable jobs . I just missed a 7x10 pretty cheap with a 5k axle that would have been perfect - it was damaged in a wreck and would have been an easy fix . I've passed up so many great deals on older Miller Bobcats and Big Blue models just due to not having something to put it on , and no, I'm not modifying the Dodge for it ...lol .

 

Hopefully I can get time today to look at that engine breather - from the service manual's description it sounds like a basic pcv valve that's probably just dirty .

 

I've needed this thing back in service since the day it went down , my machinist buddy has especially been pestering for some blade work where his big Kubota won't fit - looking forward to some seat time .

 

Sarge

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After the initial test firing and obligatory "ride around the block" I had found a slight oil leak . Almost looked like it was coming from the aluminum pump housing or something - even with a mirror it's tough to get a look at anything in there . Took the left side panel off and checked every fastener in/around the pump , nothing found . A closer look at that time showed everything dry but there are traces of oil that were slung around from the engine flywheel screen . Hmmm...

 

So , I suspected it's possibly from the engine itself and not the hydro pump system . Pulled the breather and gave it an inspection and cleaning . Ran it again last night for a bit to get it to full temperature - no leaks . Been hunting on the net for a replacement breather element - seems they don't exist now at all . I do have a question about the mounting face side and a small recess that appears to be machined into the body -

 

The valve and it's 277072 part number -

 

59da1cbc44254_20171007_1040201.jpg.7a19ce3b223c26ff1b87971d11eeea55.jpg

 

Note the half machined hole/recess in the gasket area - the valve can bypass there a little when testing it -

 

59da1d0faa48a_20171007_1040341.jpg.c67cdbe1022c057d3f845df226b49bdb.jpg

 

I cannot find a new replacement , assume they are NLA as many other parts for this engine series are retired . The main seal does hold any are flowing in the direction of the crankcase to create a slight vacuum except for that machined recess - it appears the governor side gasket would cover up that hole just fine although the gasket is hard and not compliant - wonder if that's a problem ??

 

Anyone know much about these breathers ? Seems these were only used on the K-482/532/558 engines and the K-662 used a breather on top of the valve box instead .

 

I plan to take it out today when it warms up a bit and work the tractor some - see if the leak comes back and try to track it down . I need it back in reliable service very soon ...

 

Sarge

 

 

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Ok.....here goes -

 

Upon further load testing and work pulling the heavy lawn trailer around and up/down some hills - the manifold started leaking . Furious language ensued , and I tore it apart once again . Started at 11am , finished it last night at 18:30 . This morning , topped off the trans oil and started testing again - no leaks so far and I worked it pretty hard , pulling the heavy trailer and even stopping halfway up a hill , then taking off at full tilt - nothing yet . Plan later to put the blade on it and really push it hard , we'll see how it goes .

 

Now , on to the details . When I took it apart the first time the original o-rings and backers looked fine - like new , in fact . I had installed a set of Paul's aftermarket replacements with heavy grease and when I took it apart after leaking they were all seated just fine - still had plenty of traces of grease on them as well . Hmmm...that didn't make sense . As bad as it leaked , I'd expect which ever port was leaking would have cleaned off the grease from the hot oil - it did not and they all had a notable coating left on them - almost as if they never really touched against the bottom of the pump's facing . Scratch the skull further....?

 

I ended up putting it back together with the set that was in the tractor when I took it apart and so far it's holding . Now , not to blame @pfrederi in any sort of way but this has really got me stumped . Visual inspection shows the originals to appear thicker as a stack at the two high pressure ports - the backers that were in there are definitely thicker than the aftermarket ones - by about .015" . Is there some possibility that later models had a more shallow recess versus this old '74 ? This thing has been screwed with so much over it's lifetime I have no real known history of it other than all the hacks that have been done over it's 43yr lifespan by previous owners - so it's hard telling what is original or correct on it - such as the wiring and pretty much everything else . I've had to "correct" nearly everything on this tractor and only have the info here and the books I've found on the net and pictures of other machines . It seems as though every person that has ever touched this poor machine should have never been allowed near any tools , especially a welder - as the blade proved so glaringly with it's hack repairs.

 

The only issue it seems to have now is the trans oil temperature gauge has suddenly lost it's mind - the thing is showing very high temperatures despite the lines/block/pump housing being barely warm to the touch . Not sure if the sensor just decided to suddenly get nuts or the gauge itself is smoking crack - either way I need to address that so I can trust the thing . I'm pretty sore/tired from yesterday's marathon and working on the ground with my knees and back - probably won't do a lot today and looks like the rest of the week may be pretty wet , which we need and I could use a break anyway - been going like a nut for 2 months working on all this stuff .

 

If anyone has any ideas , insight or a WAG as to why it leaked - I'm all ears ...

 

Sarge

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Hmmm, --- I recently went into all 3 of my D's drive systems and used Pauls 'freebie' rings (thanks again Paul!) and while I had a bucketful of other glitches, strangely enough the manifold connection/s was not one of them! And with the way they are mounted and the extreme care you have to take when doing the re-connect, I was thinking THAT would be the most likely place!

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My thoughts exactly - I was not surprised it leaked due to how tough it is to set that pump in there correctly despite using the pilot bolts and such . What was a surprise is that none of the new rings were cut/smashed nor out of place - they were exactly centered in the ports as they should be and it still leaked . Before I reassembled it , I had used my precision straight edge to check both the pump and manifold mating surfaces - both were within .0001" of being flat - the limit of what I have for feeler gauge/shim stock and the specs on the machinist's straight edge . Both surfaces were perfect , no burrs or otherwise - it really should not have leaked , ever . It's not like this is my first rodeo - been turning wrenches for almost 45yrs and worked professionally in several shops over my lifetime . Still go out and so some "freelance" jobs on occasion to help out buddy's shops that are overrun with work in areas I specialize . I'm a bit of a nut when it comes to tolerances - learned the hard way far too many times on things that are critical and dangerous if not done correctly to specs - especially racing engines . My Master Machinist friend was here yesterday to help set the pump in place - he's the one that noticed the difference in the thickness of the pressure port sets and we both found that to be odd . But , given past experience - it is very common to find proprietary seals in hydraulic systems and other things - the OEM had used very specific materials and dimensions to make things work correctly - many are made to their specifications and it's certainly the case with Sundstrand products , which were made within 40 miles of where I live in LaSalle , Illinois . I swear , it always seems as though generic parts work for everyone but me - if I try that it fails and sometimes makes me wonder why I never listened to Dad and avoided picking up that first wrench ....lol .

 

I still fail to understand why it leaked and that will drive me nuts - as usual . The worst part is now I don't trust the tractor to be reliable despite all the repairs - I use it a lot for doing blade work and other things a fair distance from home - when these things fail it's a real problem as it turns into a 1350lb anchor that is tough to move without causing further damage . I guess from here the trailer will get done and I'm going to put a heavy duty winch on it - if nothing else so I can get it loaded and back home for repairs if necessary - always have to have a backup plan in my book . If I knew the weather would hold out longer I'd drag that old , reliable 1277 out of the shed and fix it's frame - that poor abused animal has been bulletproof for so long it's disgusting and the reason I love WH in general .

 

Sarge

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Posted (edited)

I happen to have two Toro sourced backer rings.  They measure .049 inches thick...exactly the same as the ones i got from McMasters (Dash 018)  I really do not think they are proprietary custom jobs.  Anyway mine hasn't leaked for several years...

 

Maybe the originals came from sundstrand but toro substituted the standard dash 018 to fill parts orders????

oring.JPG

Edited by pfrederi

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I have no idea at this point - the whole thing has me stumped . Now , just went out and checked it after letting it sit for a bit - it's leaking yet again at the manifold . Really tempted to dump a can of gasoline on it and light a match - at least the marshmallows will taste good . Inspection mirror and light shows it's coming from that joint where the rings sit - again , what a joke ....

 

At this point I can't even sell the dumb thing to recoup what I have invested in it - not sure what I'm going to do next .

 

Sarge

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Posted (edited)

.093 is the depth of the groove on a spare manifold I have.  The stacked Dash 018 ring and backer measure .103 (Combined spec thickness of . 07 o ring .049 backer of .119, but teh oring fits into teh backr ring a bit....(Mind you I do not have pro quality measuring equip so plus or minus a bit.)  I measured the groove depth on a hydro motor got .0935  You do not have leakage on the motor end (same o rings)...could the groove in your manifold be a tad to deep???

oring1.JPG

oring2.JPG

Edited by pfrederi
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Just a FWIW (for what its worth) I was having a fit getting the back up ring to go in on top of the O and stay, so after several *$###@ at it I finally realized it has a top and bottom - flat side up and concave side down! Things went a lot smoother after that!!

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I fixed the issue of keeping the backer in place - used Permatex Spray High Tack on all 6 of them after some serious cleaning/drying of the ports . When I get it apart again (rain next few days) I'll dive deeper into the depth of the manifold ports and measure the recesses with the digital depth gauge I have now that I know a baseline on other manifolds . What is odd is it didn't leak at first and I worked it pretty hard to get the oil up to temperature and push the pump to full pressure to the hydraulics - it started leaking after it sat for a bit and cooled down so I could re-check the oil level . The fact that it didn't leak until it was cooled points to a tolerance problem - when the parts are heated and expanded  , no leaks . Parts cooled after heating , leaked - maybe that manifold was cut a bit too deep and a thicker set of rings is needed .

 

I moved it yesterday back to the work area after wiping everything down . Got the inspection mirror and a light and had a deeper look around that whole area - again noticed the one bottom bolt on the aluminum pump housing was wet (left side of tractor , opposite of the direction control ) . I know there is a thin gasket in there - maybe that housing is leaking just a little and running down onto the manifold due to the two different metals cooling at different rates ??

 

Going to talk to LJ Fuid power today about that gasket and a few other parts as well - especially a spring and accelerator valve for the 16Auto - it likes to try to launch the operator off the seat in forward mode . I'm also stopping over at my welding shop neighbor and see if he has any crack detector/activator for steel - I want to make certain there are no hairline cracks in this manifold or the pump itself . If I had the cash at this point I'd go hunt down a used Kubota subcompact with 3pt and a blade - it's what I need around here the most and I need something in operation like a month ago....yet I'm still spending my time and the decent weather on this infernal D180.

Our weather patterns are changing here right on time , by mid-October it becomes anyone's best guess and it's rare to get even one full day of decent temps , low winds and no rain/snow . The weather in northern Illinois can change in an instant - we've seen temperature drops of over 50*F in just a few hours . If you don't like the weather here , just wait 5 minutes - it will change , lol....

 

Sarge

 

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After  I overhauled the pump on my D200 I ran several pressure test to include implement pressure test holding the lift at full extension for a fairly long period (not a good practice in normal use).  After sitting for a day I noticed some drips from bottom of aluminum pump housing.  Turns out the actual source was the oil seal on the input shaft.  Cleaned it up and haven't had any leaks since.  I surmised that holding the control valve open at end of stroke builds up higher pressure in the pump housing enough to overcome the seal.  In normal use I do not do that and haven't had any return leaks.  In addition to input shaft I would suppose the two side seals could also be a problem..

 

 

EDIT:  Some people call minor leaks drips seeps etc. a problem.  To me they are part of my corrosion control program.  Very few pieces of my old equipment will ever rust out from the bottom :P

Edited by pfrederi
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This is more than that as far as a leak - it will eventually find it's way to the engine's flywheel fan/screen and really create a problem - not to mention the mess . The original setup never leaked a drop at all , just liked eating it's coupling at random . That part is cured and it runs smoother than ever but I hate having leaks and if the pump can leak it can also suck in air - which will destroy it in short order . I ran that same test , holding both the 3pt and the mid lift against the stop for a bit at full throttle - no leak at all and I was under it watching that manifold like a hawk . During the test drive pulling the 500lb trailer I even stopped on a hill and intentionally rammed it full power , full forward on the hydro - again , no leak . Park it for a bit , let everything settle to check the oil and it leaked again , wtf , over ???

 

None of the fins on the pump are wet with oil , nor is the front seal or side control shaft seals leaking one tiny bit - they are perfectly dry . All the oil is at the manifold block and that one corner of the aluminum housing . I'm starting to wonder if the machine shop had used a heavy clamp on the housing when the cut the keyway in the pump shaft - but I had it set up for them with an angle iron bracket on the front to level the pump and provide a clamping spot to put it in the mill - which he said worked out excellent . The shaft itself was held in the vice to keep it from moving , then he indexed the coupling to that shaft cut with a scratch built block tool to use the EDM cutting machine to cut the matching keyway in the coupling and index it to the pump shaft splines . That was the part that made it expensive and complicated - if it had been a smooth shaft that would have been super easy in comparison . If for some reason I lose this pump and the shaft gets damaged - that's game over and have to start again from scratch , which I will not do . The cost of the used pump (which is quiet and very strong) , the machine work at 2 different shops , and custom cast welding (Inconel) came to just over $500 total .

 

It would be so satisfying to burn this thing to the ground but I've got too much money in it now to do that - although that smooth high torque K482 would sure power a welder/generator head so nicely....lol .

 

Sarge

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Ok...update time .

 

I'm flat out of weather and good temps to get stuff done around here - no garage and too many issues with arthritis/hands/legs/back so it's time to move on . I did get the D back together after replacing the pump housing gasket I got from LJ Fluid Power - hope they never run out of parts stock and great people . Nice to talk to someone who knows these pump systems inside and out as well as Wheel Horse models . In fact , other than other owners , I've never found a business that knew anything about them other than WH used Sundstrands - these guys know the parts themselves like the back of your hand , love it !

 

Like I said - that gasket was indeed leaking once I had it apart and a closer inspection performed - someone has been in here before for sure . The slippers and everything look new , not kidding and are highly polished . Same deal with the valve plates and such as well as the swash plate - all nice and shiny with no scratches at all .

 

Now that it's back together , a new leak has cropped up - this time at the swash plate shafts on both sides with the left one being far worse . Pump works good and feels stronger than ever , but the direction control seems far too sensitive and it constantly wants to creep no matter how many times I've gone through the adjustment procedures . It's almost like it has no neutral point now - maybe linked to the leak in the swash plate shafts ?? I've gone through the linkage drawing for the '74 model that fits everything on this beast - all parts are assembled correctly and I've corrected some wear in the cam plate with a bronze sleeve bearing to remove the excessive slop it had .

 

I need to read through the Sundstrand manual again and re-visit the procedures for putting the housing section back on the pump - maybe I missed something . I know for certain I got the valve plate oriented over that indexing pin , remembered that from the manual and paid extra attention to it during the reassembly process . Maybe something moved with the swash plate pins or those parts when I opened it - need to figure that out and repair those leaking shafts as I don't want oil being sucked into the engine's flywheel screen and coating the fins in the big K . I know I probably did the reassembly somewhat backwards - I centered the pump block on the plate and lowered the housing onto the block section - I think the manual wants it done the other way and maybe that's the reason for the direction control's operation being so weird .

 

I did move the offending trailer with the big D so I could get all the wiring harnesses done and the lighting installed along with putting the deck back on it - the weather is suppose to turn colder and we have rain coming this weekend . I cannot do all the wiring when it's cold , my hands just don't work and down around 60* the Raynaud's in my hands kicks in , rendering them basically useless . I used to love winter and never had problems working in the cold - those days are gone so the trailer is getting done now and depending upon Mother Nature the D may have to sit until Spring . I've rather use the D for snow work than the 16Auto but I did get a new acceleration valve from LJ Fluid Power - I think it will be $35 well spent to fix it's spastic forward/reverse operation - the thing wants to toss you off the seat fairly often and I'm sure it's not doing the gear parts/axles any good either . For whatever reason , using the blade with that one is a pain as it has about zero finesse compared to the D and the old 1277 - I sure do miss that tractor and wanted to have it back in service prior to this winter but that's not going to happen. I'm starting to re-think the situation and what models I want to keep - need something dead reliable that I don't have to work on , ever . Maybe Mother Nature will suddenly cooperate here in Illinois , but that's highly doubtful and a buddy just traded off his mid-size Deere compact for a nicer , newer Kubota with a cab , loader and full hydraulics - man is that one sweet machine . We picked the trailer off the jack stands in one shot with it , the tractor didn't even act like anything was hooked to it's bucket - that was nice and a lot easier than using the engine hoist . If nothing else , he can plow the drive for me - I do enough welding for his stuff he sort of owes me some work anyway...lol .

 

Sarge

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Went through the linkage settings again last night and re-adjusted the parking brake clearance and pre-load . That part seems to work correctly but the main forward/reverse links just seem to be off somewhere . Been through the drawings several times now - can't see any part that isn't assembled correctly but something is just off by quite a bit . It's almost as if the direction control arm on the pump is backwards but it was never removed this last time and only fits one way on the shaft due to it's roller on the end of the arm . Also , twice now the rear axle housing has "burped" about half a pint of oil all over it , not sure what that's about unless the pump is getting air sucked in through those swash plate shaft seals ...? Going to try again today to get a final setting on the neutral position on the pump - it acts like there is no neutral at all and wants to just take off .

 

I might be able to get into a buddy's shop to tear it down again - it's at least heated some and out of the weather/rain but I'll have to help him finish a couple of projects to get enough room to work on it . We need the D to do some blade work for an area that has a drainage problem as his big new Kubota won't fit in there so it may happen pretty soon before the ground freezes , I hope .

 

Sarge

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Spent some time and moved the crippled 1277 out of the 10x12 shed and did some sealing work so I can heat the shed at least to some extent . The D is in there in pieces , again and the pump is in the basement . Worked last night to clean and disassemble the aluminum housing section and replace those pesky trunnion shaft seals - both were hard as a rock and one was even cracked in the rubber ring section - found the leak . Both needle bearings were in decent shape but it got two new bearings and seals anyway - enough of taking this thing apart time and again already . Had a tough time digging out those seals without destroying the aluminum housing - those smaller sized seals are a pain - then I realized I have a specialized tool for that - duh .

 

5a0afdec34cf3_20171113_1642441.jpg.37f3c983f43c4b1b06077bcb1284dd53.jpg

 

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Insert that tool into the seal , hold forward pressure on the end of it and strike downward with a hammer - pops them right out easily . I used a short 1/4-20x1/2" bolt to protect the housings casting around the seal area . That tool is some seriously hardened steel - almost no flex at all and works quite well in some tight spots . The tool is part of a Toyota/Lexus front axle lock nut removal set that comes with a socket to fit the front wheel drive cars - I need to ask the Matco guy if they can get that tool separately - would like to have a spare as I use it a lot around here .

 

Upon inspection - only very light wear just starting to show on the trunnion shafts themselves - will flip these 180* from their original orientation to prevent damage to the new needle bearings . I don't even want to ask what these shafts cost to replace - they are hardened and polished .

 

5a0afe45ec961_20171113_1703491.jpg.499b373a00ce9a567af412985bab2267.jpg

 

When it came time to push those needle bearings out I spent a few minutes making a brass insert and a steel rod with a pilot end to fit into the brass part on the lathe - helped a lot pushing those bearings out straight and installing the new ones . Was surprised how tight they fitted these needle bearings but that is how they set the final shaft fit .

 

5a0b00fb15de7_20171113_2012011.jpg.9a9e39d715d6b9fbfd5160b6a19b233e.jpg

 

5a0b00c8040d2_20171113_2011531.jpg.84fdddd16182c46b12e8cc4ccf5ba67f.jpg

 

I'll have to check around today and see if I can source another CR7475 input shaft seal - got ahead of myself and installed it after doing the needle bearing seals , duh - it has to wait until the main shaft and circlip is installed first . No way to extract and re-use it - shouldn't work so late at night as it's too easy to make mistakes .

 

 

I spent some time inspection the swash plate and piston block assembly - all are in very nice shape and the parts look like new . Same with the thrust plate . I can find nothing in this pump that would explain why the direction control linkage/arm is so far off when the pump is in it's neutral position - makes no sense whatsoever . Last time the only way it would sit still running was with the linkage adjusted all the way to the one end and the direction control handle halfway in the forward position - no way at all to hit the neutral point on that control handle . It also constantly wanted to go in reverse - this part I can't make any sense out of it - been through the linkage drawings and such several times , had the linkage completely off and nothing is out of place or assembled incorrectly .

 

Even trying to adjust the eccentric to it's limit it makes almost no difference - that has been driving me nuts - anyone else ran into this ?? If it is placed into the park position regardless of how the parking brake is adjusted as soon as the engine is started it's trying to go in reverse and jamming the park brake . Going to dive into that linkage one more time and compare it to the assembly drawing for the '74 - which fits this model .

 

Is there a chance this pump is different in it's control arm ? I have no idea what year it was from or what model D , bought it used so that's about all I can possibly think of - the only linkage setup I have is for the '74 and I see no reason they would have changed orientation of the pump arm clocking position ?

 

If anyone has insight on this - I'm all ears for sure .

 

Sarge

 

 

 

 

 

 

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      Brian Foley
       
    • By Sarge
      Got the coupling modified , keyway cut , new spline piece from a later model C welded into it and running into a misalignment issue . Seems like the engine is 1/2" too far forward ??
       
      I need this thing tight to the front pump mount so it's got as much of the splines engaged as possible and utilizes the 3/16" wide key to take the abuse I had machined into the pump shaft (that hurt, btw) . I set the coupling within .030" of the bracket , which is where it sat before although previously someone stacked a whole lot of washers between the coupling and the engine's flywheel . Is the rubber puck perhaps backwards , somehow ??
       

       
      You can see just how far it's pulling on the rubber section , bowing out the two sides attached to the engine's flywheel .
       

       
      Looking closely , the black allen socket set screw holds the key in place tightly - and I mean TIGHT . I want zero movement against those splines - in my opinion that is why these things wear out too easily .
       
      b
       
      I seem to remember there are two raised portions on the rubber ring - on each side of it and there is a difference , perhaps it's the wrong direction ?
       
      Any insights - bring 'em on - it's an odd 92* day here in September and I'm sure we'll pay for it next week ...ugh .
       
      Sarge
    • By Clay Dodson
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