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Phil902

No Crank, I may have killed my horse

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Sorry this so long, but I'm trying to give a complete picture.  I said in Grey Ghost's no crank post that I thought I had solved my C-161 no crank situation when I replaced a faulty fuse holder. Over the last two days though, it died several times while riding it, and then today when starting....couple of turns and then silence. Twice it restarted right away with the key; the other times it would start when I hooked a jumper to the starter and the positive side of the battery, and also when I jumped the battery side of the solenoid (new) to the small solenoid post. Then the key would work the next time. The PTO switch is new and had proper continuity as shown in the manual. The other switches were jumpered when I got it, and still are. I tried to fix the pedal switch by installing a missing e-clip to help the parking brake cam align properly. The switch is intermittently bad, as it does not fully release every time. The seat doesn't contact that switch, and as it has no effect when the PTO isn't engaged, and as I don't have any attachments yet, that's a problem for another day. When I was checking the kill relay wire connections, it would click and then not click. 

The PO rewired at some point, and spliced new wires into the old wires with crimp connectors near the ignition switch. I replaced the ignition switch due to corrosion, and the gang connectors for the ignition and PTO interlock, as they fell apart. He left an excessive amount of wire in the well under the battery and control panel. When I decided this morning to trace each of the wires looking for a ground, I found that the jumpered wire from the pedal switch to the solenoid was caught in the gears at the end of the steering wheel shaft, and mangled. I shortened it, reconnected it to the wire that goes to the PTO switch, and it cranked. But no start. Fuel flowing, spark check, no spark. I got my test light, I had voltage to the kill relay purple wire in. I had previously sanded the relay mount and the frame, and replaced the ground wire. My test light probe touched the relay mount plate, and it lit, and the relay clicked. It also lit and clicked on the relay case in one small  area near the ground screw. I disconnected the black wire to the magneto, still no spark. I disconnected the purple wire, then both wires. No spark. Then I got stupid, I think.....I bypassed the relay by jumpering the two wires together. No spark, and a hot jumper wire. I removed the kill wire at the magneto, no spark, but I probably fried it sending voltage down to it.

I'm at a loss as to what I did earlier to kill the spark, and what to do about the kill relay, which I suspect is bad, intermittently.  Any suggestions on how and what to test next? On the bright side, I suspect the steering will be a lot smoother now....

Edited by Phil902
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I believe this is the tractor involved. Click on the fuzzy picture. Notice there is a ground cable between the engine and the tractor frame at the bottom of the 2nd page. The wires in the cable often fail from the constant shake of the engine resulting in a poor or no engine ground condition.

The engine parts list

2 pages on the kill relay

Posting this for those that can offer advice.

 

Garry

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8 hours ago, Phil902 said:

PO rewired at some point, and spliced new wires into the old wires

Considering the number of problems you have encountered and the less than stellar job done by a PO it seems to me your best bet would be to remove the present wiring and replace it all. If you only fix the present gremlin another one will be lurking in the shadows ready to strike when you can least afford it.    Garry has provided the drawings and the ignition pigtails, relay mounts etc can be purchased at NAPA.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, 953 nut said:

Considering the number of problems you have encountered and the less than stellar job done by a PO it seems to me your best bet would be to remove the present wiring and replace it all. If you only fix the present gremlin another one will be lurking in the shadows ready to strike when you can least afford it.    Garry has provided the drawings and the ignition pigtails, relay mounts etc can be purchased at NAPA.

 

Unless the tractor is in stellar shape, upon purchase I try to rewire all tractors expeditiously as well as replace fuel lines, fuel filters and often carbs.

Edited by Aldon
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Phil, Sorry to hear about your problem. Like you said before, you thought you had her fixed. That's aggravating to say the least especially if your trying to use it around the homestead. Good Luck, keep us posted. 

Question 4, Aldon or 953. Just curious, are most of the wiring connectors available from NAPA. As in ignition switch female plug? Also, when you desire, do you pull the old harness out. Lay it out and build from there? Along with using the Ol I phone for pictures of the before? Just curious, never know when that experience will be needed on this end. Thanks and Get R Done, Phil.

Brent

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I don't trust the harness to be accurate. I pull electrical schematic from manuals section and wire it as designed. I bought a bunch of wire and connectors in bulk. I used a supplier and parts list that @Martin posted in one of his build threads. 

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Thanks for the downloads Garry.  I checked to see if the cable was there, intact and secure in my initial T/S, but I hadn't considered it might be in poor condition internally. I'll recheck that.

 

Thanks also Aldon and 953. When I got the tractor, I started the engine for the first time using an auxiliary gas tank. Once I saw it would run, I replaced the fuel line and filter and rinsed the empty gas tank, and started chasing the electrical. I changed the fluids and I cleaned the carb when I thought I had the electrical solved, as it was hunting. It had a good amount of water in the bowl, but was relatively clean. Ultrasonic bath anyway. Running good now, once it starts.

 

I'm definitely going to fully rewire. Any info on wire size(s) ? It has everything from what looks like 18 or 20 gauge to 14 gauge in there now. The IPL and manuals seem to only reference colors not sizes.

 

I've gone to 2 NAPA's  trying to locate a replacement for the kill relay, Neither one could help, other than a referral to a shop in Southern Maine where they do a lot of vintage tractors. I haven't tried there yet. I though I might just get something modern that would work, but with no markings on the case, and no apparent familiarity with tractors neither shop wanted to hazard a guess.

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After looking at the kill relay service bulletin, the wiring came to me wrong. The magneto wire and the ground wire were switched, and I stayed with it. I also could have used the advice about not jumpering the connectors. Fortunately, the coil isn't that expensive and is readily available. Live and learn. If I ever do this again, I'll "Aldon-ize" the wiring before I do anything else. I'm still not sure the kill relay was/is  the problem though; I believe when I pulled the wire to the magneto from the coil in my second round of T/S, that should have isolated the kill circuit on the magneto, no? If that was the problem, it should have started??

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Something you can try. With points ignition the points must be open when taking a measurement but don't know if this will work with the magnetron trigger in the circuit.

 

With the ignition wire to coil disconnected measure the resistance from that wire to the engine ground.

Measure the resistance from the spark plug wire to the engine ground.

One of these should be a low resistance and the other much higher. In a fog this AM and can't remember which is which. (Say 5 ohms and 5000 ohms)

 

Measure the resistance from the ignition wire to the spark plug wire. This resistance should equal the above 2 when added together. (5005 ohms)

 

Garry

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8 hours ago, Phil902 said:

gone to 2 NAPA's  trying to locate a replacement for the kill relay, Neither one could help,

That is the problem with today's computer literate generation, they have what you need but the box of knowledge in front of them prevents them from thinking!   :soapbox:    since you will be rewiring the tractor it hasn't got to be an OEM direct replacement plug and play piece. A generic five pin 12 volt relay and a prewired socket to fit it is all you need and any auto parts store will have them. They have a 12 volt coil and a common input and a choice of NO and NC outputs.

 

Relay Socket - Pre-Wired HarnessImage result for 12 volt 5 pin relay diagram

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Thanks. I started rewiring today. Tedious, to say the least. I'll try the ohms test after I rewire. The wire going to the coil presently is a pretty light gauge. I'm using 14 across the board. 

Thanks 953, if I could prevail on you for some clarification (12v electrical is like calculus to me). The current relay has a terminal for power in from the PTO interlock; a terminal for a ground wire to the frame; and a terminal for the wire to the magneto. With the 5 pin module, would the power in be 86, ground 85, and magneto wire 87 ?  I assume one pin doesn't get used, the NO or NC pin. In my configuration, does the 4th wire get eliminated from the terminal block or capped off?  Besides being 12v, is there a particular amp rating I need the relay to be?

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I would secure a piece of plywood and attach the existing to the plywood. Use long nails to secure wire so you can make the bends and so forth. I think you can grasp the idea.  Design the circuit using the notes and observations from other members here that have done re-wiring and are experienced with it.  Train yourself to think outside of the box. You do no have to have an out of the box ignition switch for example you can make about anything work if you use your head. 

 

Making the loom... With the harness secured to the plywood one can now take measurements and cut wire to the desired lengths. I would suggest a trip to the auto parts store to buy a spool of split loom covering material that the wires can be inserted into. ( Just like the newer cars use a flexible split plastic type covering. This will do several things. One provide a nice looking finished project look and secondly provide protection to the wiring.

 

Please do not use wire nuts or cheap crimp type connectors.  The proper the best tool to use would be a K&B crimp tool along with the proper sized crimp connectors and appropriate heat shrink tubing. This is of course my opinions here and may not be shared by others.

 

* Note*  I did this when I installed all the aftermarket spark control and ignition upgrades to my supercharged Z-28 LT4 when I had it. When I was done all the wiring looked factory and was neat and tidy. 

Edited by 6bg6ga

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Updating and begging.....I rewired 90% of my C-161. I didn't do the headlights, no urgency and busted lens, and I didn't do the rectifier, as I didn't want to pull the flywheel if I didn't have to. I replaced the coil, and it started right up; I obviously fried it with the relay jumper. Now to the kill relay. I had a new 5 pin relay in my horde that was for a trim/tilt motor on a 115 hp outboard I sold awhile ago. It's labeled exactly like the relay 953 posted. I've spent the last week reading everything I could find on RS related to kill relays on C series tractors; I've watched a few dozen you-tubers explaining the mysteries of relays (or trying to). The end result is I'm still confused and paranoid I'll kill another coil.

 

I do think I now understand how it works, please correct me if I'm wrong; the key in the "run (or start)" position energizes a switch in the relay which opens, preventing the magneto from completing a path to ground through the ground connection in the relay. The power to the relay switch comes from the battery through the ignition switch terminal and then the PTO interlock.  Turning the key "off" (or leaving the seat with the PTO engaged if properly wired) kills the power and causes the switch to close, completing the path to ground and shutting down the engine. 

 

I think (but I'm not at all sure) that the wire from the PTO to the relay should be connected to the relay terminal labeled "86", and the ground wire from the tractor frame to terminal "85". After that I'm lost, and if that much is wrong, I'm lost and adrift. Terms on the schematic like High Power Feed and High Power Output scare me as I can still see the jumper wire smoking. I could use a lifeline.

 

In other news, I took the badly rusted and partially seized mule off. I tried electrolysis for the first time, since my 30 gallon compressor kept popping the breaker after using a die grinder and wire cup or wheel for awhile. I was

impressed with the result after a short time in  the tank and a little brushing . (I was even more impressed that I didn't electrocute myself in the process.) I saw a couple of cool ideas here on getting the pulleys off which I'll try this weekend. I cant see a bearing. It appears to be a band of metal that the pulley(s) is riding on?  Slow progress is still progress. I'm grateful for the help I've received on this; on my own, I would have stuck it in a corner of the yard by now and hoped the brush overgrew it before my wife noticed it and mocked me incessantly.

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You are correct on 85 and 86.

 

Your ignition wire from the engine goes to 30

Also ground 87a

 

Relay schematics are usually illustrated as in their at-rest state. (Not powered)

With the ignition wire on 30 and 87a grounded it will shut the engine off.

 

When the ignition switch powers the relay coil at the bottom of the illustration it becomes a magnet and draws the relay contact down to 87 from 87a.

In your case 87 is not connected to anything so now the ignition wire is not grounded and the engine runs.

 

Garry

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9 hours ago, Phil902 said:

I now understand how it works, please correct me if I'm wrong; the key in the "run (or start)" position energizes a switch in the relay which opens, preventing the magneto from completing a path to ground through the ground connection in the relay. The power to the relay switch comes from the battery through the ignition switch terminal and then the PTO interlock.  Turning the key "off" (or leaving the seat with the PTO engaged if properly wired) kills the power and causes the switch to close, completing the path to ground and shutting down the engine.

 

100% correct!  Image result for 100% correct59b3c9476b58a_1relay.jpg.7a84b56fd0e25c94de5bb29fa3b15e60.jpg

 

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Thank you all so much. Hydraulics will probably be next, Cylinder works, but is leaking, and maybe the pump, but they will most likely have to wait until Spring.

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