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RJ Hamner

Raider 12 wiring has me stumped

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Posted (edited)

First some vitals:

1968 Raider 12

Kohler K301 model # 47147B

Magneto ignition

10 amp stator (according to the manual, I haven't as yet pulled the flywheel)

 

Background:

I bought it last fall.  It ran.  I even mowed the yard with it twice while our Cub Cadet was in the shop.

It has been in the shed until recently when I got the new throttle and choke cables to replace the ones that were in really sad shape.

When I went to move it out of the shed the battery was dead.  Bought a new one and had to change the cables as the new batteries no longer have a "post".

I got a real good look at the wiring and figured that since I had the gas tank off to get to the cables I might as well replace ALL the wiring since I had everything apart

Now I want to make one thing clear I am not the greatest when it comes to wiring and circuits.  But I figured that if I was careful and did one at a time it would be OK

Got everything back together.  The last thing was connect the ground wire to the battery.  Lots of sparks were there shouldn't be and smoke coming from the cover for the points!

Got the wiring diagram out and double checked everything. Then got to looking at the parts manual. I had replaced the condenser but there is no condenser listed for  the #47147B model

This is what to looks like: (wire to the points is disconnected)  Now I am wondering just what exactly I have since I had found a couple of "nonstandard fixes" (read shade tree) on the tractor.

Any ideas???

Thanks

Bob

The closeup is what I did.  The distant picture with the odd exhaust setup is the way I got it

DSC_0580.JPG

DSC_0490.JPG

Edited by RJ Hamner
Forgot to add to before picture

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Condenser should be hooked up to the coil. Wire for points go to neg on the coil. If that red wire  is from battery pos. I believe your putting 12V straight to ground when the points are closed. With a mag you should not need an ignition feed to the points. You want to ground the system to shut it down. No 12 V needed.

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I'm also wondering where the red wire goes.

If in fact you had battery power going to the points the magneto ignition coil is likely burnt up.

All is not lost though. You can convert to battery ignition using the points by adding a battery ignition coil with internal resistor, proper condenser for battery ignition, bracket to hold the coil and an ignition switch for battery ignition.

 

Garry

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The red wire goes to the M lug on the ign switch. Which I THOUGHT that was the way it was wired when I got it.

But then again it wouldn't be the first time I have been wrong.  Well maybe wrong is not the correct term.  Powerful confused would be more accurate:wacko:

I see that the coil is NLA so I guess a conversion is probably the way to go.  Is there anything under the flywheel that I will need to change???

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You had the red wire correct then. Why was there power in the points box to cause the smoke? 

Instead of hooking the ground wire back up to the battery connect a test light between the negative battery cable and the negative battery post. If the short is present the light will light without doing further damage. Then you can disconnect one circuit at a time until you lose the short. (Light will go out)

 

Keep us posted on what you find.

 

You do have a wiring diagram?

 

Garry

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Let me ask a question first.  Is there a way to check the coil to see if it is still good?  Like you mentioned earlier if the coil got "smoke checked" and they are NLA,  I/we may be beating a dead horse so to speak.

On another topic, I went out back and checked a 68 Charger 12 that I got in a "package deal" that I was going to rebuild for the wife.  It HAS been converted and it looks like they used the same ignition switch??  Did they do it wrong??

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Disconnect the red wire and hook the points back up. Crank it over and see if you have spark or if it runs ground the points wire to shut it off.

You would need to see if the switch ignition terminal is marked M for mag or I (eye) for battery ignition. The switches look identical except for those letters and work totally different.

There is a third breakerless ignition that uses an odd shaped external coil but also uses a magneto ignition switch.

Garry

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I went out and used the tester between the ground cable and the negative  battery terminal - got a light.

  I had pulled the shroud and flywheel off just to see what was really there so I will have to put that back 

The rest will probably have to wait till tomorrow afternoon assuming the wife doesn't snag me for something.

Have to go visit with the doctor in the morning

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Here are two diagrams the will show the difference between Mag. and Battery ignition.

599e1dd0e8e1a_Mag.ignitiontractor-wiring.jpg.b58326c1e408f1a5403bdf6ea0390a0a.jpg

599e1dbd5b4f4_batteryignitiontractor-wiring.jpg.c8adf483305d0a8d9cffee103321ec2a.jpg

 

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I disconnected the red wire as per g-west.  Tried to connect the ground wire to the battery (slowly).  Got a spark.

Got out the wiring diagram and went wire by wire and connection  by connection three times now

According to the diagram everything with the exception of the wiring at the condenser(???) is the way it should be.

Is it possible that a bad ignition switch could cause this kind of problem????

The green wire on the battery terminal goes to the rectifier.  The old clamp had the additional wire to use for the rectifier so rather tap into the new cable 

Iran a wire from the battery terminal

DSC_0582.JPG

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:text-coolphotos:    The black wire going to the cigarette lighter is your problem! The wire would go to the center stud, you have it hooked to the ground.

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Looking at the your picture of the switch,  you have the ground for the cig lighter connected to what looks like a hot wire on your switch. That would SPARK! 

Dang Rich, My wife made me watch a video as I was typing and you beat me to it! :)

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Also, don't think the switch you are using was intended to operate a starter directly. It should be ratede at 70 amps and that looks a bit light dutyn from the picture.

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I guess that's what I get for making an assumption.  I would have thought that the outer case acted as the ground and the hot wire went on the terminal.

Hooked the wires to the CORRECT spot.  No sparks and she turned over:)

Put the gas tank back on and installed a new set of points.  A couple of coughs and sputters and she took off running!!!!

Guess I didn't "smoke check" the coil after all:greetings-clappingyellow:

So a BIG THANK YOU to all of you for all the help.  You guys are GREAT!!!:bow-blue:

Bob

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Posted (edited)

Image result for big thumbs up

Edited by 953 nut

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